Need some help upgrading speaker setup please.

[pastymuncher]

Hi all, I would very much appreciate some help from you guys who know their way around speaker setups. I currently have a set of Logitech X540 5.1 speakers albeit running in 2.1 mode. They are running off my Soundblaster Z sound card. I would like to upgrade the speakers to a decent set of proper speakers but not having a lot of knowledge on the subject I have been blindly going around in circles for the past couple of weeks. As my uses will be mainly gaming and listening to music with a bit of Netflix thrown in for good measure I would like to stick with a 2.1 setup. I have no interest in a headset.

With a budget of £250-300 I have been very tempted by the Edifier S350DB as they seem to get excellent reviews but can't help wondering if there is anything better for similar money. The speakers are going to sit on my desktop so I would prefer them to be compact, the sub will sit under the desk. I am not against going for seperate speakers and subs or even a DAC if necessary although I haven't seen any with a sub out in them as of yet. So just to recap:-

1. Will be plugged into my Soundblaster Z unless you think I need a DAC or similar.
2. Ideally want to retain a 2.1 setup.
3. Uses - Mainly gaming so need to retain directional audio, quite a bit of music with some Netflix as well.
4. Budget - £250-300 (possibly £50 extra if I would need a DAC).
5. Speaker size to be pretty compact as they will sit on my desktop. Sub will sit on the floor so size not a problem.

If you need any further info please let me know and thank you for taking the time to have a read and give me some assistance.

 

[Marsman]

2.1 speakers as a complete package is certainly easier, but you'll get better sound from getting separate speakers and subwoofer. I can see why someone would rather just buy something like the Edifier S350DB though. It's easier and they are certainly going to be better than most 2.1 PC speakers. While separate speakers and subwoofer will be better, the stumbling block is usually the cost of the subwoofer, if buying new that is.

You'd probably have to spend £200+ on a decent budget subwoofer. You can buy cheap ones for around £100, and some people just buy one of those because it's a subwoofer and it will do, kind of mentality. £100 subwoofers are not that good though. Either too small and are aimed at home cinema use. Such subwoofers are not going to be much cop for music use.

BK Gemini II is a good 10" subwoofer, but that's around £230, which leaves very little for speakers.

Just had a quick look and I see that Wharfedale SW150 looks to be still available from audiovisualonline via the jungle site for £150. I thought they stopped selling them some time back. Not strictly a £150 subwoofer as it's price is lower than what is was when it was more widely available. SW150 is probably the best cheapest subwoofer available. Along with Wharfedale 9.0 and 9.1 speakers, the SW150 was still being sold long after the range was discontinued. I suppose certain retailers such as Richer Sounds (9.0), SuperFi (9.1 and SW150) and audiovisualonline (SW150), had an arrangement with Wharfedale to sell them if they were still being produced.

The BK Gemini II is better than the SW150, but an extra £80 or so. Would be worth the extra, but would blow your budget to pieces.

£150 on a SW150 would leave £100, maybe £150 for speakers. You'd need either powered speakers with a subwoofer output, or passive speakers and an amp. You wouldn't necessarily need a sub out on the amp, because the SW150 has speaker level input; although a sub output would certainly be easier.

Sub out is not that common on cheaper powered speakers. I think Edifier 1850DB stereo speakers have a sub out, but not sure how readily available they are.

If considering passive speakers + amp, then SMSL Q5 Pro and AD18 both have a subwoofer output. I've got a SMSL Q5 Pro connected to some floor standing speakers downstairs. I don't use the system that much, but the amp does a good job. AD18 has a few more features, such as Bluetooth and a headphone output. Both are around £120.

Doesn't leave much for speakers, but Wharfedale 9.0 are available from Richer Sounds for £60. They are very good speakers. Got a pair for mum to use with an old amp I had a few years ago and they sound great.

Anyway; SW150 for £150, SMSL AD18/Q5 Pro for £120 and 9.0's for £60 comes to £330. Over budget, but you wouldn't have to consider a DAC, as that is a part of the AD18 and Q5 Pro. You could also have to factor in speaker cable cost, but that won'r be much for a few meters of decent cable.

If you're willing to buy used, then there will be more options when it comes to the subwoofer in particular.

 

[pastymuncher]

Many thanks for all of that. I have found the SW150 for sale and the Diamond 9.1's but they are much larger than I would like. My desk is only 550mm deep so the Diamond 9.1's take up half that depth and the sub is huge. I was hoping there would be a more compact solution but I guess my budget just isn't big enough. I am off to do some research based on your suggestions.

 

[Demon]

Edifier make some great VFM speakers.

For £250 you wouldn't get a 2.1 complete setup as separates

For example, a small recommended setup that would definitely sound better for music:
SABAJ A4 Desktop Amp/Dac/bluetooth with Sub-out (2 x 80w) - £120 (Z-Reviews says it's a good all rounder)
DALI Spektor 1 speakers (fairly desk friendly at 20cm deep) - £150 (What Hi-Fi 5* Reviewed)
Wharfedale Diamond SW150 - £150 (What Hi-Fi 5* albeit many moons ago)

That's £420 for the setup. You can look at other speakers, the Q Acoustics are notable alternatives, but they are larger on the desk (it's the depth mainly)
You don't have to get a sub if you aren't a bass head, the speakers actually slam pretty hard and produce a fair amount of bass, but obviously you get that bit of extra punch/depth with a sub.

 

[Marsman]

Many thanks for all of that. I have found the SW150 for sale and the Diamond 9.1's but they are much larger than I would like. My desk is only 550mm deep so the Diamond 9.1's take up half that depth and the sub is huge. I was hoping there would be a more compact solution but I guess my budget just isn't big enough. I am off to do some research based on your suggestions.

Yeah the 9.1's are quite large. I have some myself, but on speaker stands. I did try them on my desk once, but they were certainly too big.

9.0's should be fine though. Only a bit bigger than the satellites that come with the S350DB. Speakers I use on my desk as the same size as the 9.0's.

Edifier make some great VFM speakers.

For £250 you wouldn't get a 2.1 complete setup as separates

For example, a small recommended setup that would definitely sound better for music:
SABAJ A4 Desktop Amp/Dac/bluetooth with Sub-out (2 x 80w) - £120 (Z-Reviews says it's a good all rounder)
DALI Spektor 1 speakers (fairly desk friendly at 20cm deep) - £150 (What Hi-Fi 5* Reviewed)
Wharfedale Diamond SW150 - £150 (What Hi-Fi 5* albeit many moons ago)

That's £420 for the setup. You can look at other speakers, the Q Acoustics are notable alternatives, but they are larger on the desk (it's the depth mainly)
You don't have to get a sub if you aren't a bass head, the speakers actually slam pretty hard and produce a fair amount of bass, but obviously you get that bit of extra punch/depth with a sub.

You're right that Edifier do make good value speakers. Without either buying a used subwoofer or a cheap new one, then no you can't get separate speakers and subwoofer for £250, but in your example of what separates cost as a comparison, you've used DALI speakers which are £150. That's £90 more than the Wharfedale 9.0's. Given the budget the OP has, that makes no sense does it? With the 9.0's, it comes to only £30 over.

Going back to the S350DB's; one concern I have is Edifier's use of proprietary cables.

They use standard speaker cables on some of their models, but on some models they use non standard cables. The S350DB 2.1 speakers are an example. It does makes sense given that one speaker houses the controls, but the other cable which is just passive, also looks to have a proprietary cable. Why not just a standard speaker cable?

If control speaker goes wrong, or the something in the subwoofer goes wrong and neither part can be easily replaced and can't be fixed, then you've got to bin the lot.

With separates, each part can be easily replaced; as in subwoofer, speakers, amp. The Edifier speakers look good for the the price, but should anything go wrong outside of warranty, then you begin to understand why such speakers are cheaper. In such a case, you'd question whether it would have been best to just spend en extra £80. No one wants anything to break, but it can happen.

 

[pastymuncher]

Ok then, had a bit of a rethink. Let's just say for now I skip the sub but still have the ability to be able to add one in the future if needed and money allows for it. I have no problems with playing music through stereo speakers and have been doing that for decades through my early 80's JVC hifi (not particularly good but has 3 way speakers and never let me down). The sub was mainly for gaming but I usually end up turning the sub down anyway as I don't like a booming in your face bass that drowns everything else out. Must be enough bass for gaming though (explosions etc). So with that in mind how about a £300 budget for a decent set of speakers with a good range and a amp/DAC thingy? Front ported speakers such as the Wharfdales would be a bonus as I won't be able to get them away from the wall which seems to be required for rear ported speakers. If we can keep speaker depth below 180mm then that would be good as well. Also with the DAC/Amp being fed from my Soundblaster Z will I still have directional audio in games? I know I need other stuff like decent cables (Audioquest Rocket 11 seems to be well thought of) and stands (Fluid Audio FA-DS5 maybe) or isolating foam but that can left out of the budget.

I passed up the Edifier SB351DB which was on offer for a very keen price because of some of the points you have raised. Namely their use of non standard cables being the main one as it crops up several times in reviews and places such as AV forums meaning that they can't be upgraded and like you say if something goes wrong the whole lot has to be replaced.

 

[Demon]

If you can't audition speakers (I recommend doing this, I walked in thinking Monitor Audio, I walked out with the DALI's and also impressed with the QAcoustics).

The DALI Spektor 1's are spot on next to a wall (My Zensor Picos are the previous version of these and are next to the wall) and are 19.5cm deep, I would definitely class them as 'desk friendly'.
The what hifi review is worth a read: https://www.whathifi.com/dali/spektor-1/review

Sensibly for something so small, these speakers sound right at home close to a rear wall. Their low frequency performance stays balanced and tuneful when used this way.

They are £150, leaving just enough for a small amp.
(I keep toying with trying the 23.8cm deep Spektor 2's , they are £199 but review so well it's quite tempting).

The SABAJ A4 I mentioned previously is pretty reasonable, 2 x 80w, and has a DAC built in, so you can connect directly to them using USB and wouldn't need your Soundblaster Z, or, you can use your Soundblaster Z and connect to the AMP via Optical (or Analogue if you really wanted, but I'd recommend the optical), either will work!
And the A4 has a sub-out for 'future' use.
See Z-Reviews review:

Stands are ideal, I find angling them up towards me helped but don't need raising up of the desk (that looks odd!).

Cables, well, I tried a few when auditioning and found no discernible difference between the Cambridge Audio Symphony 400 (£2.79/m) and the Audioquest Rocket (£12.79/m), for the power/speaker class we are talking about, anything with reasonable construction will do, but it's up to you.

Later on , should you want a sub, as mentioned above (and I have one) the BK Elec Gemini II is compact, yet has bags of controlled, tight bass and has excellent controls to allow seamless integration with your speakers.

 

[fobose]

I am a massive fan of Dali speakers. I went in to audition some QAcoustics 3010i (I think) as my friend had an older version and I liked the sound. I ended up really liking Monitor Audio bronze 1's but Dali Spektor 2's came out on top for me. Since then I've bought some Dali Oberon 3's for my living room which are amazing. They seem to have held their price well too, some MA bronze 1's I bought my brother have dropped £100 in a year (£230 -> £130) :O

I really would try to audition some speakers though to see what you like the sound of, everyone is different

If you want some recommendations for some well priced speaker wire and banana plugs, this is what I use. It's quite simple to make your own.

KabelDirekt 2x2.5mm² - 15m
Fisual Easy Fix Banana Plugs 24K Gold Plated (8 Pack)

 

[Demon]

I am a massive fan of Dali speakers. I went in to audition some QAcoustics 3010i (I think) as my friend had an older version and I liked the sound. I ended up really liking Monitor Audio bronze 1's but Dali Spektor 2's came out on top for me. Since then I've bought some Dali Oberon 3's for my living room which are amazing. They seem to have held their price well too, some MA bronze 1's I bought my brother have dropped £100 in a year (£230 -> £130) :O

I really would try to audition some speakers though to see what you like the sound of, everyone is different

If you want some recommendations for some well priced speaker wire and banana plugs, this is what I use. It's quite simple to make your own.

KabelDirekt 2x2.5mm² - 15m
Fisual Easy Fix Banana Plugs 24K Gold Plated (8 Pack)

I'm sure the DALI's suit particular ears, but pretty much I had the same experience, I tried a range of DALI / Monitor Audio and QAcoustics (On recommendation from the hifi shop) and they just stood out above the others (which where still very good), mainly the imaging/separation and sound stage where all that touch wider and livelier.

As I have my small amp on the desk backed up to the wall and the speakers are close to the wall, I don't have space for banana plugs so go straight in to the screw terminals, I even had to get a right angled IEC lead, USB and phono adapter (for the sub-out) to make sure the amp can back pretty much against the wall for neatness.

 

[pastymuncher]

Thank you both for more suggestions and the Dali's look very good. Unfortunately we have nowhere anywhere near us that specialises in HiFi gear so listening to speakers before buying is impossible. I am building up a list of components now so please keep the suggestions coming.

I would connect the amp to my soundblaster Z by optical lead. Nobody has answered the question of if I would still have directional audio in games by going through a amp though. This is important to me.

 

[pastymuncher]

What about the Steljes Audio NS3's? They seem pretty good, are active so won't need a amp, they have optical in and subwoofer out so I could add a sub later on.

 

[Demon]

What about the Steljes Audio NS3's? They seem pretty good, are active so won't need a amp, they have optical in and subwoofer out so I could add a sub later on.

They won't be remotely as good as the separate amp/speakers, What Hi-Fi have reviewed those (https://www.whathifi.com/steljesaudio/ns3/review) and the whilst good (4*) they note they lack coherence and detail which would be noticeable.

Thank you both for more suggestions and the Dali's look very good. Unfortunately we have nowhere anywhere near us that specialises in HiFi gear so listening to speakers before buying is impossible. I am building up a list of components now so please keep the suggestions coming.
I would connect the amp to my soundblaster Z by optical lead. Nobody has answered the question of if I would still have directional audio in games by going through a amp though. This is important to me.

It should retain it perfectly, if you where happy using the Soundblaster Z to the X540 with only 2.1 speakers, then this will be the same, the Soundblaster Z will be encoding the positional audio into a stereo stream and that will carry through to an amp even if connecting it via optical or analogue.

 

[pastymuncher]

I did look at the reviews and saw that I would be sacrificing some sound fullness/quality. I guess I was just looking for a easy all in one fix again.

Right then, the Dali Spektor 1's looks like the best speakers for my budget and reviews seem to love them.

I have seen quite a few times in reviews and user forums about burning in/running in speakers and amps, is there any truth to this?

 

[fobose]

Not sure about amps but deffo with the speakers. Just use them like you normally would and they will run in over time. I think my Dali manuals say they take about 200 hours to get the best out of them. My parents bought some Monitor Audio bronze 2 speakers which I had for around 3 weeks (They are hard of hearing so wanted me to negotiate with richer sounds and RS wouldn't let me have a diff bill/delivery address). Any way, I did not like the sound of them at all but I left them running music in my living room whilst I was not in there and to be honest, after about 2 weeks I actually liked them. Still preferred my Dali's though

P.S Richer Sounds are great. If they offer everything you want but you find a deal cheaper else where, give them a call and they will match the price and then beat it. There customer service is great too, one of my Dali Oberon 3's turned up with a chip on it as the delivery guys had punctured a hole through the box. RS sent a replacement the very next day and collected the damaged one etc.

 

[Demon]

I did look at the reviews and saw that I would be sacrificing some sound fullness/quality. I guess I was just looking for a easy all in one fix again.

Right then, the Dali Spektor 1's looks like the best speakers for my budget and reviews seem to love them.

I have seen quite a few times in reviews and user forums about burning in/running in speakers and amps, is there any truth to this?

Well, my older much more expensive B&W DM603's certainly seem to change slightly over time, however I pretty much though the DALI's sounded great out the box and not hugely noticed any real change that I'd worry about, you will naturally burn them in using them anyway.

One tip is that if you place the speakers quite close together, say either side of your monitor, expect the soundstage to be narrower and it'll sound like the singer is almost behind the monitor, if you want to open up the soundstage so it's all around you, then don't be afraid to separate the speakers more, I have mine so that if I put arms out at 45 degrees each, the speakers are right at the tips of my fingers (So probably 1.2 metres apart) and slightly angled at me, this gives a very wide soundstage (some might not like it), but I find it much more involving.

 

[Marsman]

I would connect the amp to my soundblaster Z by optical lead. Nobody has answered the question of if I would still have directional audio in games by going through a amp though. This is important to me.

The Soundblaster Z can pass on DSP effects via optical. So if you have an external DAC and then headphone amp, you can connect headphones to the external DAC/amp and still get SBX prostudio for example.

Although, why not just connect headphones directly to the SB Z?

I suppose it would be easier though if you have a DAC/amp on the desktop, then connecting any headphones to that. Of course, if you're getting a passive speakers and a speaker amp, then that will need a headphone output.

Unless I've misunderstood and you are talking about positional sound from speakers. In such case, then SB Z > optical > DAC/amp would still give you positional sound stuff, but it won't work that great with stereo speakers. Headphones will be far better for that.

I think you've probably made a good decision in looking at getting a subwoofer at a later date, assuming that is what you are still planning to do. Certainly leaves more money to do more with at the moment in the way of speakers + amp, etc.

I have seen quite a few times in reviews and user forums about burning in/running in speakers and amps, is there any truth to this?

Speakers are more likely to be affected by any 'burn in', because they have moving parts.

There is one thing that so many overlook when talking about 'burn in', and that is the listener. People become accustomed to new sounds. What we like and don't like changes. That in my opinion is where the biggest change lies.

People can measure differences in DACs and amps and speakers using equipment, but nobody can measure the change in someone going from disliking something, to then liking it. It seems it's far easier for people to just say 'oh the sound of the speakers changed' etc.

 

[pastymuncher]

More good info, many thanks guys.

The speakers will be 1.3m apart. I prefer a wider sound stage than just either side of the monitor.

As I said in my opening post I have no interest in headphones. I have never really liked headphones and I am here by myself for most of the day so with headphones on I wouldn't hear the phone or anybody at the door plus the cats will creep up on me and give me a heart attack. There's also the fact that I had a big operation on my left ear in the mid 90's which has left me with large scars in and behind my ear which are quite painful with any pressure on them. I have a hearing aid in the left ear as well which is the main reason I want speakers.

Yes the aim is still to add a sub as and when I can afford one.

 

[pastymuncher]

I am leaning towards the Nobsound NS-14G Pro amp now. It's quite a bit cheaper (cheaper still on Ebay) than the SMSL options and it seems to be well thought of plus it has seperate knobs for bass, treble and sub.

Dali Spektor 1's just ordered from Richer Sounds. Free 6 year warranty too!!

 

[fobose]

Anything that doesn't have a 6 year warranty from richer sounds can be upgraded for 10% of the cost of the product. Plus they let you claim back the cost if you do not use the warranty, so a no brainer really

Have you got yourself some speaker wire on order? If you lived closer I would make you some leads. I bought a 50m length for my father in law but didn't use it.

 

[pastymuncher]

I have ordered the speaker wire and plugs you suggested previously. I have a dirty great Yamaha amp sat in a cupboard doing nothing but it's so damn big there is no where to place it for use with the pc so it looks like one of the SMSL's recommended above or the Nobsound NS-14G Pro. The wife is going to kill me!!