New 2019 Front Wings...

cuke2u · 31 Jul 2018 at 12:13

So we had narrower front wings to prevent track debris and punctures now we go back to wider ones, supposedly to help overtaking.
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...-front-wings-for-next-season-debut-at-testing
Confused? You will be soon...

MikeTheNative · 31 Jul 2018 at 14:53

Larger, less aero complex front wings will create less dirty air than current wings and therefore will help cars follow each other more closely. It's not that confusing.

cuke2u · 31 Jul 2018 at 16:39

It is yet to be proved that a larger, simpler wing will help overtaking and I am sure the engineers will find a way around the regs anyway so I am not confused at all. What is inconsistent is that the original wider wings were banned because of the punctures cars were getting making it more dangerous and drivers could not see them, but now they are appearing to suggest this isn't a problem.

-westy- · 1 Aug 2018 at 08:46

chriscatt said:
It is yet to be proved that a larger, simpler wing will help overtaking and I am sure the engineers will find a way around the regs anyway so I am not confused at all. What is inconsistent is that the original wider wings were banned because of the punctures cars were getting making it more dangerous and drivers could not see them, but now they are appearing to suggest this isn't a problem.

It's pretty easy to prove with wind tunnel analysis. The type of flow that they create is beneficial for the aero on the car that they're on, but they leave a mess behind the car. Simpler wings create less turbulent air behind the car. It's quite simple.

gord · 1 Aug 2018 at 09:33

-westy- said:
It's pretty easy to prove with wind tunnel analysis. The type of flow that they create is beneficial for the aero on the car that they're on, but they leave a mess behind the car. Simpler wings create less turbulent air behind the car. It's quite simple.

Are there any examples of this wind tunnel analysis online? Considering that the front wing primarily feeds air to the rest of the car, surely it's the rest of the car that's creating the mess of air for cars behind?

-westy- · 1 Aug 2018 at 10:11

gord said:
Are there any examples of this wind tunnel analysis online? Considering that the front wing primarily feeds air to the rest of the car, surely it's the rest of the car that's creating the mess of air for cars behind?

That I don't know, although I'm sure the FIA have done their research. It's quite often that the type of air flow that is produced aids certain parts of the car, but the rear wing is pretty simple in comparison. Some air is also moved around the side of the car, so I'd imagine that the simpler design reduces that.

Edit: Some good reading here

gord · 1 Aug 2018 at 10:37

Found this, quite a cool animation I hadn't seen before and gives a better sense of how the front wing and start of the floor is used to create 2 walls of air to channel the disruptive tyre air away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlBVQoRGiIw

Also, as much as I loathe YT comments, one user posted about the Y250 vortex, which lead me over here to find out more: https://tianyizf1.wordpress.com/tag/y250-vortex/

cuke2u · 1 Aug 2018 at 12:59

-westy- said:
It's pretty easy to prove with wind tunnel analysis. The type of flow that they create is beneficial for the aero on the car that they're on, but they leave a mess behind the car. Simpler wings create less turbulent air behind the car. It's quite simple.

But this isn't my point and you are not reading what I am saying. Larger wings will once again produce punctures and debris on the track, as they did before, which is why they went to smaller wings in the first place. It is no more than a knee jerk reaction to go to larger wings.
Besides wind tunnel correlation has been proved wrong before plus I have no doubt that by the start of the 2019 season the aerodynamic engineers will have found alternatives ways of producing dirty air behind the cars.

-westy- · 1 Aug 2018 at 14:06

chriscatt said:
But this isn't my point and you are not reading what I am saying. Larger wings will once again produce punctures and debris on the track, as they did before, which is why they went to smaller wings in the first place. It is no more than a knee jerk reaction to go to larger wings.
Besides wind tunnel correlation has been proved wrong before plus I have no doubt that by the start of the 2019 season the aerodynamic engineers will have found alternatives ways of producing dirty air behind the cars.

Well, yes it is your point, however I'll clarify. The more turbulent air behind the car, the harder it is for the car behind to produce it's own downforce, therefore reducing grip. That means that the car behind has to stay further behind in the "cleaner" air in order to maintain it's downforce. The consequence of this is that whilst cars can maintain the gap, they can't get closer to overtake organically. A simpler wing design will mean that the following car won't need to stay further back in the "cleaner" air to maintain grip. Therefore being able to produce more overtaking opportunities.

I understand your point to a degree about wind tunnel testing; it can't replicate real world conditions, however it can simulate a lot of them. At some point you've got to accept that wind tunnel testing has it's limitations; real world testing is more relevant, however that's restricted. This is why teams bring in aero revisions at several points during the season.

I do however agree with you that larger front wings will potentially increase the number of punctures and debris on the track from collisions. There's a fine line between not increasing risk of this and letting the drivers get on with it. If the sport was 100% safe from all of this, it wouldn't really be a sport any more, we may as well sit there on a Sunday afternoon and watch a simulation. (read: Monaco).

MikeTheNative · 1 Aug 2018 at 14:22

They do know that it will probably cause an increase in incidents and punctures but it's a trade off for less dirty air.

andicole0 · 1 Aug 2018 at 15:56

chriscatt said:
It is yet to be proved that a larger, simpler wing will help overtaking and I am sure the engineers will find a way around the regs anyway so I am not confused at all. What is inconsistent is that the original wider wings were banned because of the punctures cars were getting making it more dangerous and drivers could not see them, but now they are appearing to suggest this isn't a problem.

I thought they had tried this in F2?
Andi.

KiNgPiN83 · 1 Aug 2018 at 23:11

So I wrote a big old post about this and then looked at the pictures and read the report and I think this may have promise:

* Front wing - Wider but still looks complicated to me... It may help in that the larger surface area will carry on providing reasonable downforce in the sub optimal air coming from the car in front compared to current wings.

They will probably give us more punctures and it may be worth buying shares in carbon fibre companies.

*Rear wing - Wider and higher? If so this should create more of a “hole” for the car behind to drive in and hopefully let the car behind overtake naturally. However with current DRS too it could be then too easy to pass? As I’m they’ve ramped DRS up for an easy fix and it’s got to the point where it will slingshot you past the car in front. However the following cars/dirty air situation may have neutralised it enough that we aren’t seeing how effective it is so my fear is if they don’t adjust this with the changes it could then be too easy to overtake..

Again, I’m just an interested fan so most of the above is probably rubbish.

But still, we should look forward to it as the current cars are too diva ish in relation to following and overtaking.