New BB FEC errors

thenewoc

thenewoc

thenewoc

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West Sussex, England
Hi

If I have FEC errors on a new BB connection that's just been installed a few days ago, will DLM improve by itself or should I raise a support ticket into the quality of the connection?

Also is it right that it shows 0 output power (down)?

It's a Technicolor TG582n router so I can't turn interleaving off myself can I?


I've restarted my router as I was getting next to no upload speed at all.

Now:

Uptime: 0 days, 0:39:40

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 988 / 7,375

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 31.04 / 172.21

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.8 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.8 / 43.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.0 / 12.1

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 3 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 18 / 92

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 12 / 4

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 11 / 32


Before:

Uptime: 0 days, 21:01:12

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 974 / 7,262

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 143.62 / 1.33

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.8 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.9 / 43.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.7 / 12.1

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 73,274 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 2,347 / 275,140,719

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 1,883,369 / 4,664,935

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 751,630 / 2,557,042
 
Last edited:
Tealc said:
I'd be more concerned about the HEC errors than the FEC. To an extent FEC are normal on an interleaved line, although you do seem to have had quite a few, which could be due to DLM. I doubt the provider would look into anything unless it were terminal inside the 10 day period.
Click to expand...

Hi, I'm not sure why my line is interleaved though. I've just moved from Sky back to a BT line. Prior to moving to Sky, I was with Plusnet and my line wasn't interleaved.

This is how it looked when I was with Plusnet.

System uptime: 0 days, 16:59:44
Bandwidth (Up/Down) (kbps): 448 / 9.195
Line attentuation (Up/Down) (dB): 24,1 / 43,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) (dB): 17,4 / 5,0
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Errors Seconds (Local/Remote): 1.238 / 9
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 244 / 1.725
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 91 / 5.383
 
So you think I should wait until the service has been up for 10 days? Should it just sort itself out through DLM or if it doesn't should it be raised with provider?

Since restarting router the upload speed has improved now to 0.77 Mbps whereas just prior to the restart I was only getting 0.07 Mbps roughly.
 
So overnight i'm back to my upload speed having completely tanked to nothing so I get page load errors all the time.

My router stats look horrendous..

Uptime: 0 days, 10:15:43

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 980 / 7,154

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 95.83 / 1.73

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.6 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.9 / 43.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.3 / 13.0

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 25,620 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 16,025,363 / 95,529,536

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 1,132,363 / 1,619,825

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 2,054,136 / 888,902
 
Hi, thanks for the info. It certainly seems high to me too compared to other times we've switched provider.

It seems to have a brain fart after a few hours of jogging along to an OK performance and the suddenly the errors shot up massively and I then find I have almost no upload speed at all. If I restart the router then the connection behaves OK again for 5 or 6 hours approx. The connection went down completely this morning and I got a web page from the router saying the connection wasn't there and it was inializing. Since it has come back online its been OK. I'll know if it's gone weird again since it makes the internet almost impossible to use without any upload, I just get page not loading errors or empty response errors. If that happens I will try and use the test socket but I currently have a vdsl filtered faceplace so that is plugged into the test socket. I'm not sure it's our equipment anyway as I say as soon as I restart the router it sorts things out.

Been back up for just over 2.5 hours and fingers crossed it won't suddenly go off the scale on errors again.

Uptime: 0 days, 2:41:40

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 988 / 7,451

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 40.93 / 396.08

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.8 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.9 / 43.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 11.8 / 12.0

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 42 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 53 / 6,110

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 23 / 24

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 21 / 91
 
Unfortunately I don't have a spare modem and router apart from the Sky hub which will be locked down as far as entering the required link connection settings. I can try the adsl cable from that modem/router though if the problem reoccurs.
 
Overnight something hiccuped again...

Uptime: 0 days, 23:49:34

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 988 / 7,451

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 160.96 / 2.74

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.8 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.9 / 43.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.0 / 11.8

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 10,904 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 6,250,088 / 41,785,359

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 488,684 / 685,131

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 947,223 / 390,384
 
ISP has confirmed something isn't right with a line test so waiting on an OR engineer appointment now. Background noise on line also confirmed.

Fingers crossed for a better connection soon.
 
4.6 million CRC's down stream in 21 hours must be some sort of record :p

I assume the DLM set the SNRM and maybe we weren't interleaved initially but would be understandable if the DLM has loosened up parameters to try and compensate for the line quality.

The ISP spoke to me earlier on the line and knew straight away that the line sounded noisy. It didn't sound that bad to me but they deal with this every day so am happy to take his word on it. To me it has a feint hiss in the background but during our conversation it did crackle a few times. Did a test with things as they were and then using the test socket and he confirmed the number of errors were unacceptable and the voice call was noisy with and without the test socket.

With Plusnet the SNRM came down to 5dB so we were getting around 9 Mbps.

Hopefully I will get confirmation tomorrow of an OR Engineer appointment just in case they don't solve it on their side of the NTE5.

Seemed a bit strange how it could be working OK for a few hours but then the error rate would jump up from a fairly normal figure to a crazy high one. Was just having a google on HR fault and found some examples of people who seemed to have a similar situation where theirs was working OK but then some burst of noise was occurring on their line so I think perhaps it's something like that.
 
Noticed a bit of a jump in speed last night so checked the router stats today and things seem to have become more stable. No visit from an engineer or appointment as expected so hopefully it's something they've sorted from their end.

Uptime: 0 days, 7:54:18

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 992 / 7,462

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 82.02 / 1.76

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.9 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.8 / 43.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.1 / 11.7

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 65 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 8 / 3,748

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 111

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 576
 
Connection has been up for almost the last 4 days so how do these look now?

Uptime: 3 days, 17:54:00

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 988 / 7,146

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/GB]: 1.40 / 25.48

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.7 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.8 / 43.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.3 / 12.7

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 734 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 966,800,851

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 31 / 1,369

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 26 / 8,711
 
bitsNbobs said:
The OPs issue is NOT likely to be a HR fault IMO. A HR fault will result (interleaved or not) in a far greater decrease in speed. His prior speed before any issues was 9Mb it is not about 7.5Mb that is a 1.5Mb loss (which would equate to the line now being interleaved).

A HR fault will also not necessarily show itself as noise on the phone line either. It is more likely to be seen as the connection having issues remaining connected when the phone is off the hook, in use or the receiver is placed back down. Those are the only time the SERIOUS voltage will change with a HR fault at the user end.

His post with 6 and 41 Million FEC and just under 8 hours of up time http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=28322398&postcount=12 is where he has resynced the line MULTIPLE times during a training period and INP has not been reapplied properly. Entirely normal to happen on an ADSL line if you keep resyncing it. INP values are calculated on a ratio of errors against uptime, keep restarting the connection and it has conflicting data on what the value should be. Resulting in a line which is still interleaved but with no INP to base the interleave calculation from.

Half his issues is he keeps resetting/restarting his connection, obviously in a vain and hopeless attempt in thinking suddenly he is going to get his 1.5Mb extra back. Though to be honest even if he didnt i doubt DLM will be able to sort things out, his line is just poor. Even before it had 'issues' http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=28315810&postcount=3 it was suffereing from LOF and LOS, which is far worse a problem than any errors.

His issue is more likely a Earth contact fault. Either in his property (old star based wiring which needs a refresh is an often culprit) or outside at cabinet or exchange. If the OP has a newer style faceplate the first thing he should be doing is trying the test socket. IF speed goes back up using that then he knows its likely poor cable termination his end.

If it is outside of his property (FAR MORE LIKELY IF BROADBAND IS THE ONLY ISSUE THE OP HAS AND PHONE WORKS FINE) its at the exchange and the reason its happened is because when he migrated the connection from SKY (LLU based) back to BT, BT in their infinite wisdom doing the lift and shift from LLU back to BT wholesale gear have decided to connect to an old bunch of pairs which have not been used in years. Probably corroded as hell and the lazy engineer couldnt be bothered to go get the emery paper before crimping him off. SOMETHING i hated when working for them and having to go fix other lazy individuals so called "work".

Calling BT and asking them to test the line (assuming you do not speak to another lazy idiot) should identify the fault. The OP can also try https://www.bt.com/faults which SOMETIMES will pick up line faults and even identify where the fault is.
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to reply with all this info.

I can confirm that we did have noise on the line and the ISP arranged with OR to look into it around the end of July. We did see an improvement after some intervention from OR occurred but since then we still have a noisy line and the broadband connection locks up. To clarify this locking up occurs at random times and when I've taken a look at the router stats there have been a very high level of errors, such as the examples I've posted in this thread. What I also notice is if I check speedtest.net it will fail the upload test. For some reason the router doesn't resync itelf even though the internet has become unusable. The ping and download speed are also affected but to a lesser extent. When we were with Plusnet and Sky our SNR Margin was lower and we have never had an interleaved service before. The reason we restart our router is because if we didn't we wouldn't have any usable internet service. We have been doing the whole house up so we haven't had the time to keep chasing up the ISP. The other thing that I've now noticed is that when I looked into the possibility of changing ISP, that our landline is not recognised as a BT landline but I understand our ISP uses some LLU in the exchange and is thus a BT Openreach landline but as yet is not showing up as such.

Earlier this week we have chased the ISP again over resolving this and yesterday OR confirmed to the ISP that they have cleared the fault. Last night the same thing occurred with the internet locking up. The router didn't experience any loss of service during the time that OR were attending the fault either, not sure if that is significant. Last night I had to restart the router to get the internet working again. Today's check of the router stats seems to show things have been more stable but we still have LOF, LOS, high SN Margin and an interleaved service. Our phone line does seem quieter today but it still feels as though we have a problem since SN Margin is higher than it was with previous providers and our service is slower than it was.

We no longer have the original daisy chained type telephone extension sockets since part of the work on the house has been putting CAT6 Ethernet around the house. There is now an Ethernet cable that is terminated on the extension IDC's of the vdsl interstitial faceplate which terminates to the patch panel the other end. We have tested the line in the test socket with the ISP who confirmed there to be a problem with the error rate with running their test connection to our router whilst plugged into the test socket of the master socket by removing the vdsl faceplate.


Uptime: 0 days, 10:54:49

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 992 / 7,235

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 179.57 / 3.20

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.6 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.8 / 43.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.0 / 12.8

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 36 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 4 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 106 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 116,787,795

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 3 / 70

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 332
 
Last edited:
The only other routers I have are another TG582N which is a Plusnet one with an older firmware and a Sky Hub. I would have to find out what my service password is because it's asterisked out in the current router settings. Might be able to then use the Plusnet router to test theory to some extent. The service was never interleaved with Plusnet though so if the FEC's are a weakness on the 582 then it might not prove anything.
 
bitsNbobs said:
You can pretty much ignore the FEC count even though it should not be that high. You have some kind of line fault as is evident from the following in particular stats...
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 36 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 4 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 106 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 3 / 70
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 332

On a decent working connection those should all basically be ZERO, the only exception being ES (error seconds) which some lines have the odd one)

Loss of signal and loss of framing are the telling stats, there is something wrong with the dsl signal. This will need a openreach engineer to check your wiring, the cabinets and the exchange. I would guess from how bad it is there is something wrong with the line card or your connection into it.

This is highly unlikely to be REIN or similar it is far too constant. Go back to your ISP and pester them until they authorise the correct type of engineer (not just a phone engineer/installer) to come out and fix this.
Click to expand...

I think it was Thursday the OR engineer was meant to have sorted it and the ISP phoned wanting to close the job off but I wasn't happy to do that and they were meant to call again yesterday for feedback as to whether it had been resolved. Shall have to chase ISP again on Monday but it seems were stuck in a loop of problem acknowledged then OR brought into the equation and then back to square one.

We can't even see our phone number as a BT landline on an ADSL checker and we've had the line now for over 2 months.

My worry and belief is the error is intermittent, so it can be relatively OK and then something causes masses of errors. I wouldn't be surprised if the OR engineer doesn't find much unless by chance the error causing situation is occurring whilst the engineer has their test equipment connected.

It has been a little more stable, since it's not loosing sync or locking up due to the upload stream grinding to a halt but having checked the stats a while ago I can see it's pretty bad again.

Uptime: 0 days, 16:50:43

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 986 / 7,115

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 594.23 / 9.14

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.8 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.7 / 43.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 11.1 / 12.8

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 90 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 10 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 51,091 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 2,078 / 185,401,052

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 41,543 / 3,196,713

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 10,332 / 1,691,979
 
AlecR said:
I'm pretty sure the FECs on Technicolor routers are complete rubbish but the CRCs and Error Seconds are worrying.

You need to get this re-raised as there is quite clearly still an issue.

I'd push for a pair change and lift and shift and if that doesn't help, I'd get a REIN case built.
Click to expand...

Does a pair change and lift and shift occur when changing providers? I think our present ISP uses talk talk LLU but we'd like to now go for fiber with a different ISP. Once we can get our landline to show up as a bt landline.
 
When the engineer had reportedly been to clear the fault at the cabinet and exchange there was little to no noise on the line. Just out of curiosity I went and had a listen earlier and it was back to having some noise present again. However, latest stats from the last 14 hours shows much less errors than a similar recent period as per the post above, both of which are since the last engineer visit. SN Margin has dropped a bit too for down stream, lowest I've seen it I think since moving from Sky.

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 13:57:44

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 961 / 7,424

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 191.57 / 2.95

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.5 / 0.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 23.7 / 43.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 11.8 / 10.2

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 131 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 25 / 13,776

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 1 / 210

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1 / 1,563
 
Last edited:
Well everything behaved beautifully whilst OR engineer present so no fault found, line was quiet and very minimal CRC's occurred. Replaced connection in outside xnte box so their wire and ours are connected now without the original segmentation and fuse as he described it. New internal master socket and vdsl faceplate. Shortly after engineer visit we check phone and discover noisy line and router stats show CRC's climbing at a rate of aprox. 110'000 per half hour or aprox. 7000 per 1MB of data transferred downstream.

New router being dispatched by ISP and OR copper engineer job ticket raised.
 
Well we've decided today to jump ship since the offer of fiber with someone else at no more cost than were currently paying was too tempting an offer to pass up on.

We will be going from LLU to BT Wholesale so I guess that will be a lift and shift.

I'm fairly sure the problem is at the exchange with our current adsl as I discovered a loose connection on our telephone handset so the OR engineer was right in not discovering any noise on the line with his equipment.

Anyway we hopefully will be sorted once the changeover to the new provider takes place, just takes a while, about 3 weeks until our phone moves over, then a couple of weeks without dsl until the fiber goes live. Have to make do with mobile broadband to tide us over the down time.
 
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