New headphones / speakers / sound card?

dt97583

dt97583

dt97583

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Hello,

I plug my CAL headphones into my Creative T40 II speakers, which are powered off my Z77-D3H mobo. Let's say I've got a few hundred to drop, where might you spend it?

I like my CAL headphones, they're comfy, they don't squeeze my head, and they sound great to my untuned ears. I listen to a lot of music of all types, probably 50/50 with headphones and speakers.

So where might you spend on something new? Speakers? Headphones? A soundcard? An amp?

Cheers

David
 
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To get a better sound you have to work backwards from your ears, so you'll get the most improvement from better headphones or speakers, and less but still noticeably better than your mobo from a better amp and DAC.

As it's for music, rather than games, I wouldn't get a sound card, you're much better off with an external DAC and headphone amp.

While the CALs are good headphones, you'll get much better as you increase your budget (within reason).

If you want a nice headphone setup, something like this would sound great...

Headphones: Sennheiser HD650 (£230)
Headphone amp: Schiit Vali 2 (£165)
DAC: Schiit Modi 2 (£100)

Total = £495
 
Cheers rids57 - appreciate the response. Is it worth touching the desk speakers too though as I don't always listen via headphones. 6 year old towers that I've probably got their monies worth from.
 
It's worth it but how much have you got to spend? If you have to get decent speakers out of the same budget then the only way you can do it is to seriously compromise the sound quality. A ballpark figure would be useful, as would your listening tastes.
 
So the CALs epitomise great value for money and fantastic quality. I don't have a fixed budget if I'm being honest.

My criteria is just the best value for money and nothing unnecessary. Headphones plugged into speakers, plugged into mobo, sounds good at the moment. Would more or better kit sound better?

My tastes in music go from left to right - grime, rock, indie, pop, basically most.

Cheers
 
So the CALs epitomise great value for money and fantastic quality.
Click to expand...

They are great value but you have to add "for the money" to qualify the fantastic quality.

Would more or better kit sound better?
Click to expand...

Yes. :D

The headphone socket on your speakers is not going to be anything special. It will be backed up with cheap components as they will want to provide a headphone out as cheaply as possible as it's not much of a selling point.

There are too many permutations of options to go into detail but you could...

1) Keep your speakers and add better headphones, DAC and headphone amp
2) Keep your speakers and add better headphones and a combined DAC & headphone amp
3) Keep your speakers and add better headphones and a sound card
4) Keep your headphones and get new active speakers, a DAC and headphone amp
5) Keep your headphones and get new active speakers and a combined DAC & headphone amp
6) Keep your headphones and get new active speakers and a sound card
7) Keep your headphones and get new passive speakers, a DAC and T-amp with a headphone socket.
8) Keep your headphones and get new passive speakers and a combined DAC and T-amp with a headphone socket.
9) Get new headphones, active speakers, a DAC and a headphone amp
10) Get new headphones, active speakers and a combined DAC & headphone amp.
11) Get new headphones, active speakers and a sound card
12) Get new headphones, passive speakers, DAC and T-amp with a headphone socket.
13) Get new headphones, passive speakers and a combined DAC and T-amp with a headphone socket.

Then you add the variations of each component, ie. different headphones at various price points and the same for the rest of the equipment and you have an insane amount of choice. :eek:

So I think you need to narrow it down, at least to the kind of system you want, a firm budget and whether you will keep anything - then it's time to look at the details and costs.
 
Hmmm I didn't realise there was so much choice and option. I'm liking what I read about the HD650 so I think I might be sold on these. They're a decent chunk of money though so I'm now thinking I can probably only square off in my mind funds for new speakers, and not DAC / Amp - is this crazy talk? What are my options with speakers?

Thanks
 
Crazy talk sorry - if you want the HD650s they absolutely demand a decent amp to drive them. They have a 300 ohm (that rises to 500 ohm +) input impedance, which means they need more voltage than low impedance headphones in order to get their diaphragms moving and even if the headphone output on your speakers could get them loud enough (and it probably won't), they would sound lifeless and dull.

The reason that every option I listed includes either a separate DAC and amp, combined DAC and amp or a sound card and that's because before you will hear any sound improvements, you absolutely need a better source than your motherboard audio and a better headphone amp than the one built into your speakers.

Honestly, there is no point in getting better speakers or headphones without upgrading the rest of the audio chain because no matter how good the speakers or headphones are, if you put garbage in, you'll always get garbage out.
 
In terms of speakers I've been reading through some old threads on here and the Edifier R1600T III and Edifier R1800T III seem to get very positive reviews.

I've also read that active / powered speakers have their own amp and so can't make use of amps other than the built in one?

So I'd plug the R1600s into the DAC, then I wonder could the inbuilt amp of the speakers drive the HD650s enough?

Tech spec for the speakers:

http://cdn.ventmere.com/edifier-dev/uploads/user-manual/studio_1600tiii_r1600tiii.pdf

On closer inspection the speakers don't seem to have a 3.5mm output but I'm reading there's a RCA to 3.5mm conversion cable out the box...

One final point - my audio input comes 100% from Spotify Premium i.e. 320kbps although maybe this will go to lossless with rivals like Tidal offering this.
 
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I think if it were me, I'd probably look to get better speakers first before considering headphones. You'll spend a lot more on headphone set up if you are considering HD650.

The T20 and T40 are pretty good all round multimedia speakers, but if you listen to quite a lot of music, speakers with at least 4"woofers will sound better. The T24/40 because of the small woofers, rely too much on artificially created bass, by the Xport, or whatever Creative call it.

There is the size of the speaker to take into consideration first though. T20/40 are quite small in footprint size. Speakers with 4" woofer are going to be substantially larger. If space is an issue, then maybe it would be better to focus just on a headphone set up.

Anyway: Edifier 1600 or 1800 are good choices that offer good sound for what is not a great deal of money really.

Being powered/active, they have the amp built in. Only passive speakers can be connected to a separate amp.

The built in amp is only for the speakers. You'd need an output to power headphones, which would need to be 3.5mm. Even if there were one, then it's not the best of ideas, as they aren't designed to drive headphones with any real quality really. Any headphone out on powered speakers, is there for convenience more than anything. Connecting headphones such as HD650 to such a headphone out, would be a waste of their potential.

If you're still considering HD650 headphones then you'd need a DAC with a headphone amp. The minimum you'd need to drive them well enough, would be a FiiO E10K. It's a good inexpensive choice with a good DAC and a decent headphone amp. Has a line out to which speakers can be connected.
 
Thanks Marsman.

I've got a pretty massive desk, an Idea Galant corner desk so I think space should be okay. Are there any other speakers I should be considering? Are the 1600 / 1800 preferred over the other?

What are my headphone options if I choose not to go down the route of the HD650+Amp+DAC? A step up from the CALs I mean.

I suppose they'd still need a DAC+Amp if you're saying it's a waste of the new headphones powering them off any new speakers?

Wow £62 for the FiiO E10K versus the £265 Schiit combo.

Cheers for all the advice.
 
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It really all depends on what you want personally and to be brutally honest, your needs are so vague it's very difficult to suggest a full system of separates because we don't know your full budget, where your cost preferences lie (how much of your budget to spend on each piece, etc.) and also what your sound preferences are.

For instance, you say "Wow £62 for the FiiO E10K versus the £265 Schiit combo." and that to me suggests that you prefer value for money above sound quality, in which case you should be looking further down the food chain than HD650s as those are all about sound quality.

I own both the Schiit stack and the FiiO e10K and while the little FiiO is a pocket powerhouse, when it comes to sound quality it simply just does not sound as good as the Schiits, specially with more resolving headphones like the HD650s. What only you can know is whether the e10K sounds good enough for your needs or whether you will be left disappointed.

I also own the Edifier R1600T II speakers and have done for a couple of years. They take care of all my speaker needs both from PC and TV and I have never felt any need to buy anything better. Whether these would give you enough of a jump in sound quality over the T40s I don't know though, maybe something a little better such as the M-Audio BX5 D2 (£150) would be more suitable.

Another thing, some of the cheaper headphone amps provide line out sockets on the back, for feeding powered speakers such as the Edifiers and M-Audio but this means that you have to control the volume on the speakers as the control on the amp has no effect. It also means that headphones and speakers will be live at the same time, so you have to do a dance with the two volume controls or unplug the headphones. In contrast, the Schiit Magni 2 Uber and Vali 2 have a true pre-amp out, so that the volume control also controls the speaker volume and when you insert headphones, the speakers are muted. It's not a huge point but it may be important to you.

Suggested value system...

Edifier R1600T III speakers (£90)
Sony MDR-1A headphones (£120)
SMSL M6 DAC & headphone amp (£120)

Total: £330
 
davidmt83 said:
Thanks Marsman.

I've got a pretty massive desk, an Idea Galant corner desk so I think space should be okay. Are there any other speakers I should be considering? Are the 1600 / 1800 preferred over the other?

What are my headphone options if I choose not to go down the route of the HD650+Amp+DAC? A step up from the CALs I mean.

I suppose they'd still need a DAC+Amp if you're saying it's a waste of the new headphones powering them off any new speakers?

Wow £62 for the FiiO E10K versus the £265 Schiit combo.

Cheers for all the advice.
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Rids mentioned the M-Audio BX5 D2, they are very good indeed. Larger and likely better than the Edifier's. £150 though, so you'll need to decide what's more important to you, getting a better speaker for your £200, or whether you prefer to go for the cheaper Edifier's (which are still very good), and possibly get some cheaper headphones (than the HD650) as well.

I think I'd look at getting a DAC as well, whatever you're thinking of buying, whether it be speakers or headphones. Using onboard audio isn't really going to get the best out whatever you're looking to upgrade.

For headphones, maybe Sony MDR 1A would be a worthwhile upgrade. Philips Fidelio X2 are very good and popular choice of headphone, and currently a great price on the jungle site, but sadly a long wait time.

While the Sennheiser HD650 will run fine off of a FiiO E10K, which is the minimum you'd need to consider, the headphones can do better. Would it be worth spending £230 on headphones only to not get the best from them?

E10K would be a good starter unit, with the aim to get possibly the Schiit stack at a later time when funds allow; but if the E10K were to a permanent long term solution, then maybe it would be better to consider something like MDR 1A or X2, which will never really need anything more than an E10K.
 
rids57 said:
If you want a nice headphone setup, something like this would sound great...

Headphones: Sennheiser HD650 (£230)
Headphone amp: Schiit Vali 2 (£165)
DAC: Schiit Modi 2 (£100)

Total = £495
Click to expand...

How does the Magni 2 or Magni 2 Uber compare to the Vali 2? Let's say it's paired with the Modi 2 (or Modi 2 Uber?), HD650s and Edifier R1600T3.

Thanks
 
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If you want to connect your speakers to the pre-outs then you can scratch the standard Magni 2 as it doesn't have them.

Both the Magni 2 Uber and Vali 2 offer excellent sound quality and almost identical features. The Magni 2 will have faster, crisper bass while the Vali 2 will have smoother mids and highs, specially if you change the tube to a better one, although that can get expensive and the differences are a lot smaller than you would imagine. The Vali 2 shares a lot of it's signature with the Magni 2 and doesn't sound as "tubey" as an out and out tube amp like the LittleDot II or III.

Both amps will work well with the HD650s, the Magni 2 Uber having an improved and more sophisticated gain stage and the Vali 2 with it's ability to fine tune the sound signature by tube rolling (changing tubes for others with a different sound signature). So if you want something that will just work, sound great and is capable of driving anything from IEMs to HE6 then the Magni 2 Uber is a great buy or if you want to experiment with tube rolling or want a slightly rounder / smoother sound then by all means try the Vali 2.

My own setup includes the Magni 2 (no pre-outs) and the Vali 1 (which sounds more tubey than the Vali 2) and I'm pretty much using the Magni 2 all of the time now and contrary to the ravings of the tube evangelists, the HD650 sounds just fine with the solid state Magni 2. :D
 
Would it be worth connecting the speakers to the pre-outs? I don't really know what my other options are or what the 'best' way of connecting the kit up is.

I don't have any desires to change tubes. Not really sure I know what sounding 'tubey' sounds like.

It sounds like the Magni 2 is possibly a better buy over the Vali 2, or maybe this just comes down to preference?

What cables would I need to connect all the kit up?

Cheers
 
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If you want to use your DAC to provide the signal for both your headphones and speakers, then you need some way of connecting the speakers into the audio chain. If you are using the Modi 2 then the amp you use needs to have some kind of pass through RCA connectors for you to plug the speakers into. There are two kinds of pass through:

1) Line out - this provides a full volume signal to the speakers and the volume control must be done at the speaker.

2) Pre-out - this enables the user to set the amp volume to full power and set the speaker volume to a maximum level. You can then forget about the speaker volume control and use the amp's volume control to adjust the level of the speakers.

The Magni 2 Uber and Vali 2 both use the second method, so to switch between headphones and speakers you would need to insert / remove the headphone jack.

DAC / Amps such as those from SMSL use the line out method, so you would need to adjust the volume on the speaker itself or from within the software you are using.

Providing you go with the Modi 2 and Magni 2 Uber / Vali 2 setup, you would need two RCA to RCA cables, the length dependent on how you arrange the units. I have mine stacked on top of each other (amp on top) and use the Schiit Pyst cables, which are very short, good quality cables but you can get much cheaper if you don't mind them being longer, that will do the job just as well.

Note: The standard Magni 2 has no RCA outputs so you won't be able to connect speakers to it.
 
So it's looking like:

Headphones: Sennheiser HD650 £232.00
Headphone Amp: Schiit Magni 2 Uber £145.00
DAC: Schiit Modi 2 £100.00
DAC to Amp cables: Schiit PYST RCA £15.00
Speakers:
Edifier R1600T3 £87.00 or M-Audio BX5 D2 £149.00
Total: £579 or £641

How does the Modi 2 connect to my PC mobo, USB to ? are there cables supplied with it?

I guess speakers generally come with RCA cables to connect to the line out of the amp too?
 
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I honestly can't remember if the Modi 2 comes with a USB cable, though if it does it's probably quite short. I use a decent quality (though still cheap) 2m USB cable I got off the rainforest.
The Modi 2 Uber can be connected via USB, coaxial and optical, should you require different methods of connection or connecting to a PS4 etc.

My edifiers came with cables.
 
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