New Hi-FI advice please.

Spud21 · 28 Jan 2006 at 01:20

*long Post*

Hi, i am at some point in the near future going to be getting myself a nice stereo, as i'm tired of listening to my rather large music collection on cack systems.

As it stands i've got about 800-900 quid to spend, now for the moment i want to spend the vast majority of this on the main components, and will upgrade to higher quality cables and the like, in the future.

The way i have tried looking at it is to allocate a equal budget for the main components, so as it stands i'm prepaired to spend up to £250 on each bit (Cd player, Amp, Speakers) Then the leftover will go on some stands for the speakers and some cables that are adequate, which will be upgraded.

I have 3 ideas for systems that i want to go out and demo over the next couple of weeks, and i was wondering before i get to the shops if there are any other ideas that you can offer within the budget of 750 for the 3 main components.

My ideas are,

Cambridge Audio Azur 640a (amp), Cambridge audio Azur 640c v2 (cd) - £ 500
Marantz Pm 4001 (amp), Marantz Cd 5001 (cd) - £ 350
Nad C320BEE (amp), Nad C521BEE (cd) -£ 420

Speakers,

B+W DM601 - £ 250
Monitor Audio Bronze B2 - £ 200
Mourdaunt Short Avant 902 -£ 150
Warfedale Diamond 9.1 -£ 180.

Any alternatives would be most welcomed, and any general advice would also be most welcomed as i'm a bit of a Noob at this, which is why i'm not happy about the idea of going second hand, as i don't know jack, and don't really know anyone who does.

Thanks in advance, and sorry for the long rambling post

Matt · 28 Jan 2006 at 09:48

You have left out the most important bit of information! What do you actually listen too?

Also, read the sticky

Oh and don't be scared of getting certain components second hand, as it WILL allow you to get a far better system.

MrMatt · 28 Jan 2006 at 10:11

im off to buy the azur 640a azur today after reading some fantastic reviews on it. I've also read about the mordaunt short 902i's, they are meant to be better than the 902's but can still be had for the same price. Google them and you'll find a site with them in.

According to what hi fi this pair is the best for a budget setup, but as always it depends what you listen to and what you like your sound like. Make sure you test before you buy.

Liverpool-Lad · 28 Jan 2006 at 13:29

I think you could do a lot better secondhand, something like a NAD 541i (not dissimilar to the NAD 542 in many ways) and something like a C350 or C370 would be excellent and still within budget scope.

DRZ · 28 Jan 2006 at 19:23

Please please do NOT buy an Azur amplifier without checking out the competiton s/h.

You are doing your wallet and your ears a dis-service by simply disregarding the options available.

I appreciate that you are probably not used to "hifi" and so it could be a bit tricky knowing what is going to go with what. I can imagine someone such as Mr_S, Committed, 9designs2 or MB going to a hifi shop and hearing something and knowing what sort of kit they are going to marry up to well and buying s/h from that experience, but having said that, you can demo nearly all manufacturers current range and get to know the "house sound" offered by them before scouting about on the second hand market.

I would say that for the budget you have available, you forget about cables altogether until your next pay packet - there are significant gains to be had (mainly in the amplifier world) by spending just a little bit more on the amp (s/h or new) and buying lesser cables (dare I say bell wire?!) until you can afford them a month or two down the line. Another reason to do that is being "new" you might not know where things in your listening space will affect the image etc - you wont be happy if you have just spent out on some £25/m cable to find that its 50cm too short but moving them closer spoils the sound!!

I would, in my personal opinion and experience, say that an Azur 640A and Mourdant Short 902is would be a terrible waste of money for a first hifi unless you were hell bent on buying new. Even then, its not too hot a combo no matter what the latest comics say

£900 budget would get me something I would be happy with, something like this:

Arcam Alpha 9 or (older) Nait 3 / perhaps a few more if you could stretch a bit
Rega Planet / Arcam Alpha 7se / Meridian 200+203 etc
B&W DM602S3, Castles (severns should be in budget) / Dynaudio Audience 40s or MAYBE 60s if you get lucky) etc

Some SERIOUS kit there, quite a long way from a 640a/MS902i setup in my opinion

Matt · 28 Jan 2006 at 19:35

If you give us an example of what kind of music you listen to, then hopefully we can suggest suitable kit for you to demo. Personally i'd say you really should be looking second hand as the system will be far better.

Along with the components mentioned by DRZ, you could look at Cyrus too

Mainly the Cyrus 7 range.

I'm not sure about completely ignoring cable though, as tbh it's not 'that' expensive to buy. QED Silver Anniversary would be good speaker cable to look at

Spud21 · 28 Jan 2006 at 21:30

Music wise i mainly listen to metal, from more gentle stuff like A Perfect Circle to very heavy stuff like Fear Factory, Slayer, pantera, and the some death metal on top of that. I also listen to a lot of Drum and Bass, from Aphex Twin to Pendulum. Also listen to hip-hop, Dj Shadow, UNKLE and their ilk. Also have a couple of classical albums as well.

So i need a system that will play Metal and Rock very, very well, but it also needs to be able to handle hard Drum and Bass fairly well as well as hip-hop.

I'm not hell bent on getting new kit, it's just i know dick all about Hi-Fi's except what sounds good to me. I personally wouldn't adivse someone who knows sod all about Pc's to go and throw the best part of a grand at a second hand Pc, unless they had someone who knew what they were doing with them, so i'm a tad aprehensive going second hand as if i get sold a lemon then well thats 1000 quid down the drain that i will never see again, and when you are a student at uni 1000 quid is one hell of a lot of money.

If i'm buying new i get the security that if it does blow up then i can get it replaced or repaired under warranty, if i buy second hand and it all goes tit's up then well i've just got a few bits of very expensie junk, and no comeback.

Forgot to add, any advice about where to go for second hand stuff would be appreciated as well i haven't got a clue.

commited · 28 Jan 2006 at 22:30

Welcome to the world of proper High fidelity.. It'll be an expensive hobby, but a rewarding one

Anyway..
First things first - what's right for me, may not be right for you. This is why it's impossible to "spec" you a hifi - a few suggestions can be made, but you're going to have to head into a shop and do some demoing first. It's a bit like buying a car in that respect

How big is your room?

Setting a concrete budget of £250/component isnt really necessary - you may find that you cant notice the difference between a £150 and a £250 CD player, but you can between a £250 and £250 amp etc..

Second hand is the best way to go, for Amps & speakers. As long as the speakers arent really old and aren't damaged, there are some real bargains out there.

I sincerely agree with ignoring cables until your next pay packet arrives. You're going to be blown away with the sound anyway, so it's good to have time to aclimatise to your system with standard cables and then think of an upgrade.
You might as well make decent cat5 speaker cable from the off though, if you have some lying around... see here - http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17527018 - it'll be cheap as chips, and you probably wont need to upgrade it until you get into big money components.

The sticky has a lot of great recommendations at the moment. I recently saw a Meridian 101B/105 monoblock combination go for £250. These are from the early 80's, and if you bought them would probably be worth sending off to meridian for a service, but you'd be seriously hard pressed to beat the sound for less than £2k new. That's my opinion of course

The only disadvantage is the 5pin Din connectors and the fact that the pre-amp has 3 inputs, one of which is for a turntable only. Pre-amps can always be changed though!
Other decent used amp buys include Arcam Delta 290 (basically Arcam 9, but cheaper), Naim integrated amps & the cyrus stuff.

Speaker wise - you have to decide, floorstanders or standmounts. This will mostly relate to your room size. If heading for standmounts, DRZ's suggestions are excellent.

CD Player is a bit of a minefield - second hand can be great, but lasers are prone to fail. Used dacs are a safe choice, but now there are also N.O.S dacs available. Personally, I'd head for either a N.O.S Dac (£100-150) or a Meridian 203 dac (£100) and use a cheapish DVD player as a "transport".

Dont worry about used stuff "blowing up". Speakers wont blow up as long as you dont mistreat them, and the same goes for used amps. CD player lasers are the only thing that really go, hence the recommendation of the transport + dac solution.

Spud21 · 28 Jan 2006 at 22:36

commited said:
CD Player is a bit of a minefield - second hand can be great, but lasers are prone to fail. Used dacs are a safe choice, but now there are also N.O.S dacs available. Personally, I'd head for either a N.O.S Dac (£100-150) or a Meridian 203 dac (£100) and use a cheapish DVD player as a "transport".

Umm i have absolutely no idea what any of that means

sorry.

thanks for the other advice though, all taken in and noted, Speakers will almost definately have to be standmounts, as until around sept the system is going to be in my bedroom, which is about 2.5 meteres square give or take. In spet i will hopefully be renting a place with 2 mates but as i will still be at uni it is not going to be a big place so a big enough living room for floorstanders to be happy is not likely at all.

What sort of places should i be looking at for second hand equipment ?

Oh right about the second hand stuff not blowing up, but surely i know that i'm not going to mistreat any of the equipment, but i don't know what the person before has done with it, but it does sound like second hand is the way to go.

commited · 28 Jan 2006 at 22:52

I'll try and explain it better.
Every "normal" CD player has an internal "transport" stage (basically the bit that takes the 1's & 0's from the disc) and an internal "DAC" - digtal to analogue converter (converts it to a signal that the amplifier can amplify!). As long as a CD player/DVD player has a co-axial digital output, you can use it with any DAC. Some DACs also offer optical in.

N.O.S dac means "non-oversampling" Dac. It basically gives a more "analogue" sound in my opinion, and the detail is tremendous. It may not suit your metal down to the ground, but it works well with rock etc that I listen to. Mr_S will be able to share his experience with you. I know of people who claim its the best dac they've heard in their life, whilst others claim it can easily keep up with dacs costing 20 times the price - it all depends on whether or not you like the sound (and you cant buy them in the shops, so the only possibility of a demo is if someone lives nearby).
The Meridian 203 dac is quite old, but is a very highly regarded DAC. I have no personal experience with it though. Wouldn't be a bad choice.

Re previous mistreatment, it will be obvious (after you have a bit of experience easily obtainable from a hifi store demo of new equipment) whether or not used stuff is wrecked.

Monstermunch · 28 Jan 2006 at 22:56

Problem is any good second hand amps tend to hold onto their value unlike some cd players. I would advise agaist buying second hand speakers. I started out on a similar budget to you about 3 years ago and now have the following:

Marantz CD63 Mk2 KI Signature (£120 2nd hand)
Rotel RA-03 Amplifier (£400 new)
Quad 11L Speakers (£350 new)
Mission Stands (£70 new)
Van Den Hul D102mk3 Interconnect (£35 2nd hand)
Chord Carnival Silver Biwire (£100 new)

The sound is fantastic - will probably upgrade the cd player in a year or so but I don't think you could beat the sound with a £300+ new player.

If I was going to buy everything new with your budget here is what I would go for:

Amps:
Cambridge Audio Azur 640A - 65W(£250)
NAD C352CT - 80W(£350)

CD Players:
Cambridge Audio Azur 640C V2.0 (£250)
NAD C542 (£330)
Marantz CD63Mk2 KI Signature (£100-£180 2nd hand)

Speakers:
Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 (£180)
KEF iQ5 (£400)

With a £900 budget I might be tempted to try and find a 2nd hand CD player and save the larger part of the budget for the Amp. In my experience the Amp delivers the most important part of the chain.

Spud21 · 28 Jan 2006 at 23:10

commited said:
I'll try and explain it better.
Every "normal" CD player has an internal "transport" stage (basically the bit that takes the 1's & 0's from the disc) and an internal "DAC" - digtal to analogue converter (converts it to a signal that the amplifier can amplify!). As long as a CD player/DVD player has a co-axial digital output, you can use it with any DAC. Some DACs also offer optical in.

N.O.S dac means "non-oversampling" Dac. It basically gives a more "analogue" sound in my opinion, and the detail is tremendous. It may not suit your metal down to the ground, but it works well with rock etc that I listen to. Mr_S will be able to share his experience with you. I know of people who claim its the best dac they've heard in their life, whilst others claim it can easily keep up with dacs costing 20 times the price - it all depends on whether or not you like the sound (and you cant buy them in the shops, so the only possibility of a demo is if someone lives nearby).
The Meridian 203 dac is quite old, but is a very highly regarded DAC. I have no personal experience with it though. Wouldn't be a bad choice.

Re previous mistreatment, it will be obvious (after you have a bit of experience easily obtainable from a hifi store demo of new equipment) whether or not used stuff is wrecked.

Ah right, that makes more sense now, cheers

My plan for the next couple of weeks is to first go to richer sounds and get a demo of the Cambridge and Nad stuff i can get hold of there as a reference point. Then hopefully head off to sevenoaks which is just up the road and tell them my budget and let them spec me some systems, and then demo them, as well as asking if i can demo something a fair way out of my budget again as a reference, and then go from there.

Cheers for the advice, after i've had a butchers myself i shall update the thread with any more thoughts that i have had.

Monstermunch · 28 Jan 2006 at 23:15

Spud21 said:
Ah right, that makes more sense now, cheers

My plan for the next couple of weeks is to first go to richer sounds and get a demo of the Cambridge and Nad stuff i can get hold of there as a reference point. Then hopefully head off to sevenoaks which is just up the road and tell them my budget and let them spec me some systems, and then demo them, as well as asking if i can demo something a fair way out of my budget again as a reference, and then go from there.

Cheers for the advice, after i've had a butchers myself i shall update the thread with any more thoughts that i have had.

When you've done the looking around and had some demo's etc don't forget to check the web before you buy. I only bought my Rotel about 3 months ago and shop price was an un-negotiable £499, but they changed their tune when I found it on the web for £399 and matched the price for me.

commited · 28 Jan 2006 at 23:20

Monstermunch said:
Problem is any good second hand amps tend to hold onto their value unlike some cd players. I would advise agaist buying second hand speakers. I started out on a similar budget to you about 3 years ago and now have the following:

I disagree. An Arcam Delta 290 can be had for less than £100 and it's almost identical to an alpha 9. Thats just one of countless examples - I think that most of the bargains are amps. The Arcam 7SE for example has held it's value very well - going for up to £160 now - is a 4 year old player really worth that?
Why would you disagree against used speakers? I've never bought a new set of speakers in my life, and neither has my father, and I've never had a problem. I'm currently listening to £25 mission floorstanders, that'd give the ~£200 new sector a run for its money easily

Spud21 said:
Cheers for the advice, after i've had a butchers myself i shall update the thread with any more thoughts that i have had.

Check out Audio-T for stuff too - they hold used stocks

I, personally would run away from RS for spending anything more than £500. I like to get good service for my money

Good to get an idea of the lower end stuff though.

DRZ · 28 Jan 2006 at 23:34

Please, go to Richer Sounds and listen to the CA Azur 640a with the MS902is

Then head up the road to Sevenoaks (or a Practical Hifi if there is one!!) and ask them to put on a Linn setup or a Cyrus setup on for you. Sevenoaks ought to have the Linn in afaik and Practical carry a lot of cyrus so chances are you are going to be in luck there. Get them to pair an Arcam A-series amp with some Dynaudio Focus 140s. Dont be put off by the pricetag just yet.

Listen.

Dont go back to Richer Sounds! I dont think you would anyway after hearing that!

Go online and look for cheaper versions of what you have heard and buy there.

9designs2 · 28 Jan 2006 at 23:37

Don't overlook the fact that many dealers sell used and ex-dem items. Which means you get to listen to them first, and have say a 3 - 6 month warranty.
Used I'd look for
CDP. Linn Genki (£500) Naim CD5i Rega Planet, Roksan.
Amps. Inca Tech Claymore (£120 !) Naim Nait, Linn Majik, Cyrus, Exposure, Creek
Speakers.. Try Monitor Audio, Kef etc, anything the dealers can offer. No one here can offer advise on speakers, they are all "voiced" different, you need to sample some to find your taste.....

Note I put most value on the CDP..... They do sound different, and are the most important part of the system, if they don't retrieve the music from the disc then nothing down the chain will improve on it.... Plus a good CDP will allow the rest of the system to be improved as funds allow.... Savings buying a better player later !

Note no Arcam's listed, tend to think they will be to warm and soft for your musical interests. Will lack bite and attack, but try some to see.

For me I'd try Genki (500) Claymore (120) Dynaudio Audience42 (250) around £870 approx. The Claymore could be hard find, seen 2 on auction in the last 2-3 months, but they are excellent.

Monstermunch · 28 Jan 2006 at 23:42

commited said:
I disagree. An Arcam Delta 290 can be had for less than £100 and it's almost identical to an alpha 9. Thats just one of countless examples - I think that most of the bargains are amps. The Arcam 7SE for example has held it's value very well - going for up to £160 now - is a 4 year old player really worth that?
Why would you disagree against used speakers? I've never bought a new set of speakers in my life, and neither has my father, and I've never had a problem. I'm currently listening to £25 mission floorstanders, that'd give the ~£200 new sector a run for its money easily

Depends what you're looking for - When I was looking for new Amp & CD player I started off looking for a Cyrus 6 amp (£700 new) which still fetch £500+ on online auctions, which IMO is ridiculous. Wheras the player I managed to get hold of, people still talk about now 9 years after it's release, it even featured sometime last year gold plated on the front of hi-fi world. This player was also widely regarded as the best available player under £1000 for 3years after it's release.

If you speak to any 2nd hand Hi-Fi vendor, and I know several, most will tell you that Amps is their main field followed closely by cd players because of wear and tear. Very few people will touch speakers because of possible damage caused by having being matched with the wrong components over time. Any speakers which tend to come into contention would be well out of our price range.

Any 2nd hand speakers i have purchased have turned out to be pretty rubbish and IMO speakers degrade fairly quickly with use. One of my close friends bought a pair of mission 752freedoms when they were released about 8-9 years ago. He has always driven them with good quality equipment and they have never been abused but now they have lost a lot of their tightness and speed - although still a good speaker not what they once were!

Monstermunch · 28 Jan 2006 at 23:51

9designs2 said:
Note no Arcam's listed, tend to think they will be to warm and soft for your musical interests. Will lack bite and attack, but try some to see.

I agree have always found Arcam far too warm - Friend of mine bought one and we managed to get it sounding better by matching it with a tecnhics player of all things. The technics being really bright balanced the sound a little more.

Spud21 · 28 Jan 2006 at 23:52

DRZ said:
Please, go to Richer Sounds and listen to the CA Azur 640a with the MS902is

Then head up the road to Sevenoaks (or a Practical Hifi if there is one!!) and ask them to put on a Linn setup or a Cyrus setup on for you. Sevenoaks ought to have the Linn in afaik and Practical carry a lot of cyrus so chances are you are going to be in luck there. Get them to pair an Arcam A-series amp with some Dynaudio Focus 140s. Dont be put off by the pricetag just yet.

Listen.

Dont go back to Richer Sounds! I dont think you would anyway after hearing that!

Go online and look for cheaper versions of what you have heard and buy there.

Ok shall do that then, and see what happens.

As a nub should i decide to go second hand should i give that well known auction site a wide berth once i know what i want ? Or is that a ok place to get these sort of things from ?

Teifiterror · 29 Jan 2006 at 00:07

Best to listen to lots of different gear from different manufacturers. And then buy online. Each manufacturer has their own sound and its usually reasonably similar throughout the range. I myself bought my amp and speakers new a year ago and used a pc as a source (I know). Then this year got myself a Marantz CD6000KI Sig for 200, they used to go for 500. Must say I dont think I will be buying new for a while. And usually hi fi gear is extremely well looked after. My cd player was in absolute mint condition.