New receiver or ditch the separates?

SirConfused

SirConfused

SirConfused

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I realise it's pretty subjective, but I'm looking for some advice on options for upgrading my current tv audio setup.

Currently I have an old Arcam AV8 and P7 processor/power amp in a 5.1 setup and I would like to get with the modern times (something that has HDMI etc would be nice).

The question boils down to whether I should replace the processor and keep the amp (which is completely fine still) or get an all in one unit and try to sell the pair. So far it looks like resale value on the Arcam kit isn't great which isn't helping the case.

I've been looking at processors but non amplifying ones seem to only exist at the extreme high end these days. The Yamaha CX-A5200 seems like the best option with some spectacular reviews but even used they're nearly £2k. Alternatively, something like the RX-A6A (or A4A?) or Arcam AVR20 seem like good options for the same kind of quality for an all in one unit but are a step up in cost again.

Any advice or pointers to things I've missed would be greatly appreciated. Or even a good place to lok for this stuff second hand that isn't fleabay!
 
You're right about processors being high-end with costs to match. It's down to the volume of sales and economies of scale. It hasn't helped that standards have changed faster this past 5-6 years than at any time in the previous history of home A.V. : eARC, ATMOS, HDR, WCG, HLG, HDR10/10+, Dolby Vision, HDCP 2.2, 120Hz, VRR, etc.

If you were to ditch the separates then lets look at the alternatives.
  • There's doing nothing; just relying on the TV audio. That's not going to cut it
  • Sound bars - another market that has rapidly developed, and with prices to match, but still not the audio equivalent of a decent separates system. They also have some major limitations of their own and that's not just relating to audio fidelity
There are people who have ditched older separates surround systems for the clutter-free world of a sound bar. IMO those who say they're happy with the sound in comparison probably haven't heard a A.V. separates system that does music as well as yours. There are also those who may have bought gear based purely on reviews then put it somewhere unsuitable or never set it up properly. For example, I bought a very nice s/h Yamaha AV amp from a guy in London who had it in one of those designer-remodelled living/dining/kitchen extensions. The room looked beautiful but was totally unsuited to any kind of music or AV system; tiled floors, bare walls, lots of glass. It was just a mass of hard reflective surfaces. His new sound bar sounded like a jangly mess just like his older separates system must have, and so for him it sounded the same.

There is a way to get the benefits of a processor without going high-end. The Yamaha AV amps you mention both have pre-outs. This would allow you to retain the ability to use the ARCAM P7 power amp.
 
Thanks for the response, it certainly is a lot to keep track of.
It would just be good to know how far audio quality is traded off as you go down the scale to things like the Denon AVC-X3700? It processes more channels in case I want to add more speakers in the future but it's cheaper than even the A4A.

Any ideas on where to look for 2nd hand options for these?
 
The ARCAM AV8 will be a tough act to follow. Time and technology may have moved on, but neither the Denon nor the Yamaha are in the same class. It's as simple as that.

Of the two receivers, the Denon has a little more real usable power, but it will pale by comparison with even the ARCAM integrated AV receivers. Then again, for the price difference of say an AVR10, you'd sort of expect the ARCAM to be better. Throwing your P7 power amp in to the mix takes the pressure off the Japanese AVRs.

Sources for used gear: AVForums classified ads, but the pickings are quite slim. The hangover from the sub-prime crash; the changing trends driven by the shift from physical media to streaming and the growth in the popularity of TV soundbar combos over traditional surround sound gear; silicon shortages due to blockchain mining; the economic turmoil of Brexit for the UK and then two years of pain with COVID have driven a wrecking ball through the AV world.

ARCAM changed hands a couple of times. First it was eaten by a bigger fish from America called Harman International. In turn Harman was eaten by Samsung. Meanwhile in Japan, Pioneer and Onkyo merged by that wasn't enough to save a leaky ship. Denon/Marantz changed hands and was bought in 2017 by U.S. private equity firm Sound United. Sony has all but retreated from the AV receiver market and maintains a token presence with its vastly-overpriced £450 STRDH790.

In the used AV receiver world people aren't upgrading so much. The lack of new models, several price bumps and the economic uncertainty all make for a bit of a sorry picture.
 
Keep the power amps, I presume you have several Arcam power amps? Cheapest AVR with pre outs is Denon 3700 range. If you're happy with older AVR, then get second hand.

Cheapest AV pre is about £1000.
 
Wow, that's a pretty bleak picture you pain there Lucid! Thanks for the history though, that definitely puts it into perspective. I guess the answer is to keep enjoying what I have and putting pennies in the piggy bank until I can justify a big spend on an upgrade!

@hornetstinger no, just the one P7 and the whole point of the potential upgrade was to look at something with a modern featureset like HDMI 2.1, eARC, Atmos etc etc which is the sort of thing that's going to set me back as much as I was expecting, but not what I'd hoped.
 
If you want full hdmi 2.1 AV pre it's going to cost you many thousands of pounds. Most affordable would be a hdmi 2.1 avr

Decide if hdmi 2.0 or 2.1 is important that gives you more choice. 2.1 is mostly for console gaming
 
In addition to the above (very solid) advice:
- IMO, power amp technology really doesn't seem to have changed that much. Keep the Arcam, it should continue to provide good service
- Ref the processor, well the real question is whether or not you want ATMOS? Saying yes means that you'd need to buy/install height speakers to do the job well and ATMOS capable processors are NOT cheap
- If not, well you could buy a s/h HDMI capable AV processor. The good news is that AV processor values have dropped through the floor for the legacy non-ATMOS capable units. So you should be able to pick up a good processor for a far more palatable price. e.g. I saw a Meridian 861v4 on the bay for around £1800. Add a HD621 (available for £300) and you have a full HDMI capable unit, though without ATMOS capability. Making up for that, you'll have spent £2k(ish) for a set of kit that was circa £13k when new. If £2k is too much, there's plenty of options from groups like Rotel, Marantz and similar
 
Mr_Sukebe said:
In addition to the above (very solid) advice:
- IMO, power amp technology really doesn't seem to have changed that much. Keep the Arcam, it should continue to provide good service
- Ref the processor, well the real question is whether or not you want ATMOS? Saying yes means that you'd need to buy/install height speakers to do the job well and ATMOS capable processors are NOT cheap
- If not, well you could buy a s/h HDMI capable AV processor. The good news is that AV processor values have dropped through the floor for the legacy non-ATMOS capable units. So you should be able to pick up a good processor for a far more palatable price. e.g. I saw a Meridian 861v4 on the bay for around £1800. Add a HD621 (available for £300) and you have a full HDMI capable unit, though without ATMOS capability. Making up for that, you'll have spent £2k(ish) for a set of kit that was circa £13k when new. If £2k is too much, there's plenty of options from groups like Rotel, Marantz and similar
Click to expand...

av pres with atmos start at £1000, going upto £20,000.

I have a 7.3.4 system.
 
Thinking about ATMOS is important, but IMO it probably isn't the deciding factor. I would e far more interested in the HDMI standards and whether the HDMI sockets support features such as Dolby Vision passthrough and eARC.
 
I think Atmos was probably more of a nice to have currently as I'm in a flat and won't be getting ceiling speakers any time soon!

I could probably also live without HDMI 2.1 support as long as there's eARC as I'm not going to be running a dozen different devices and my TV will be able to support everything I want to plug in. It seems like that would get me down to a price range where I could possibly find something higher end on the 2nd hand market, so back to the drawing board with research I go!

Thanks a lot for the input folks, it's been a journey of discovery :)
 
People have been having issues with e-arc so I wouldn't hedge my bet it works without issue so you may have to plug devices directly into avr.

My TV and AV pre supports e-arc but I had problems with it, going direct solved these issues .
 
Get a second hand AV amp with pre outputs or a slightly older processor. If you’re not rushing for an Atmos setup then you probably don’t need to get the very latest all singing all dancing unit. HDMI switching is nice to have, but if you’ve got a decent setup with coax or optical digital outputs and only 5.1 channels then I’m not sure you’re adding much by upgrading just this without adding more channels and possibly keeping the same power amp.

Are you planning to add any extra channels now?

Apart from lack of HDMI is there anything that you’re missing from your Arcam setup?

As has been said before, the market is difficult at the moment as prices seem to have increased, so sticking with what you’ve got might be worth it until you can get more flexibility with your setup (i.e. not in a flat). I wouldn’t add “future proofing” with more channels just in case, you’re better to save your cash right now IMO.
 
Just echoing what others have said here. It's a bad time for buying AV receivers. And I am not sure it's ever going to get better. To get the equivalent of a receiver from a 7/8 years ago, you would need to move up a couple of tiers. So if you bought a mid range receiver 8 years ago, you would need a high end one to get the same audio quality.

Just like you, I was caught by surprise when I went to change to try and get ATMOS etc. Had to spend way more than expected to get close to the level of quality that I had before.

However, a movie with Dolby Atmos done well sounds amazing even on up-firing speakers. And I am glad I made the change, even though the cost did make me grimace!! :p
 
melmac said:
Just echoing what others have said here. It's a bad time for buying AV receivers. And I am not sure it's ever going to get better. To get the equivalent of a receiver from a 7/8 years ago, you would need to move up a couple of tiers. So if you bought a mid range receiver 8 years ago, you would need a high end one to get the same audio quality.

Just like you, I was caught by surprise when I went to change to try and get ATMOS etc. Had to spend way more than expected to get close to the level of quality that I had before.

However, a movie with Dolby Atmos done well sounds amazing even on up-firing speakers. And I am glad I made the change, even though the cost did make me grimace!! :p
Click to expand...



There's this
https://www.hometheaterforum.com/co...-with-13-1-channel-support-3-sub-outs.373507/

Cheapest 16 channel AV pre
 
What kind of issues were you having with eARC @hornetstinger ? I've not read or seen anything about it in any of the reviews or breakdowns of the various receivers I've been looking at over the last couple of weeks.

I'm not looking to add any channels in less than a year and getting HDMI passthrough/eARC was the only thing I wanted to upgrade for immediately. I appreciate the link to the ToneWinner option, but from the comments in this thread I think I'll just hold off for now, keep what I've got and look to upgrade in a year or 2 when I want to buy a thousand speakers and have them all set up in precisely the right location at the optimal heights :D. Thanks for your help folks.
 
SirConfused said:
What kind of issues were you having with eARC @hornetstinger ? I've not read or seen anything about it in any of the reviews or breakdowns of the various receivers I've been looking at over the last couple of weeks.

I'm not looking to add any channels in less than a year and getting HDMI passthrough/eARC was the only thing I wanted to upgrade for immediately. I appreciate the link to the ToneWinner option, but from the comments in this thread I think I'll just hold off for now, keep what I've got and look to upgrade in a year or 2 when I want to buy a thousand speakers and have them all set up in precisely the right location at the optimal heights :D. Thanks for your help folks.
Click to expand...

Loss of audio,.clicks and pops on TV input change, pause, resume, slip chapter
 
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