New S3 Sportback - Manual or S tronic?

[Spie]

The new Audi S3 Sportback is available with a choice of 6-speed manual or S tronic transmission. I'm not sure I understand exactly what S tronic is. There's an explanation here but it doesn't mention if there is a torque converter or not. In other words is it an auto box or a manual box with auto change.

Anyone know?

 

[PMKeates]

It's a twin clutch. It's DSG with another name.

This offers some more detail:

http://www.audi.com/com/brand/en/tools/advice/glossary/s_tronic.html

 

[Tomsk]

S Tronic is Audi's name for the VAG group's dual clutch gearbox. It's effectively a manual box with auto change.

 

[Dolph]

No torque convertor, it's a Dual clutch gearbox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_clutch_transmission

My S3 was manual only because they didn't offer the S tronic at the time, I would have had one of them if they had offered it when I got mine.

I've got the DSG box (the old name/VW name for the box) in my R36, and it is, for me, fantastic. Very smooth, very quick gear changes, the only complaint I have is that manual mode doesn't give you full full manual, it will still change up at the limiter. The new 7 speed S tronic is very well regarded, but I would probably suggest testdriving it as there seems to be a marmite thing to it which varies person to person and car to car.

 

[Dr Who]

DSG no torque converter, automatic clutch (no pedal).

You get the option of driving it as a full auto, or a paddle/sequential stick shift, but with none of the power sapping you get from a normal auto box, revs rise proportionately to road speed like a manual.

They are truely an excellent box!

 

[Spie]

Excellent. That's what I'm looking for

Basically the same as the F1 box on my 599 then.

 

[Spie]

The new 7 speed S tronic is very well regarded, but I would probably suggest testdriving it as there seems to be a marmite thing to it which varies person to person and car to car.

I'm test driving the S tronic and manual versions later this month.

 

[Dolph]

Excellent. That's what I'm looking for

Basically the same as the F1 box on my 599 then.

Similar, but DSG is smoother than the single clutch arrangement found in cars like the 599, because the shift time is shorter (60ms for the 599 as opposed to 8ms for DSG) due to the change consisting of only opening one clutch and closing the other, rather than opening the clutch, selecting the gear and closing the clutch.

But if you like the F1 box in the 599, you should like DSG

 

[PMKeates]

Similar, but DSG is smoother than the single clutch arrangement found in cars like the 599, because the shift time is shorter (60ms for the 599 as opposed to 8ms for DSG) due to the change consisting of only opening one clutch and closing the other, rather than opening the clutch, selecting the gear and closing the clutch.

I don't think the shifting time will be that different - if I recall correctly the 8ms is a bit of a spurious claim not representing the entire duration of the shift, but I'd like to be proven wrong.

 

[Eriedor]

Not much to add to what has been said, it is a very good system. Smooth in auto mode and very quick changes when pushed hard through the rev range.

Only fault I feel with it is they can be a bit delayed when you want to pull out from standstill, e.g. a small gap in the traffic you need to zip into it can delay putting the power down for a second and then suddenly "catch" and shoot you out of the junction. Over time I've learn the right amount of throttle to use to minimise the pick up but it can be a bit hairy at first.

 

[Dolph]

I'm test driving the S tronic and manual versions later this month.

I must say I really enjoyed my S3, the only real criticism of it I had (and the reason it was changed) was that it was too small and (as I had the 3 door because the sportback hadn't been released when I bought mine) too inconvenient for me.

 

[Dr Who]

Similar, but DSG is smoother than the single clutch arrangement found in cars like the 599, because the shift time is shorter (60ms for the 599 as opposed to 8ms for DSG) due to the change consisting of only opening one clutch and closing the other, rather than opening the clutch, selecting the gear and closing the clutch.

But if you like the F1 box in the 599, you should like DSG

Indeed, the DSG is lightning fast compared to any other current dual clutch contender. It is very smooth as well as a result of this fast shift time.

To remove the down side as mentioned by eriedor, hold it on the brake with the left foot, accelerate as you prepare to pull out, then release the brake. It queues up all the electronics to pull away, rather than surprising them by jumping on the accelerator. I too experienced this in my Mk5 GTI, but you soon get used to it. Holding the brake stops the revs rising and and positions the clutch at almost biting point.

 

[Dolph]

I don't think the shifting time will be that different - if I recall correctly the 8ms is a bit of a spurious claim not representing the entire duration of the shift, but I'd like to be proven wrong.

The 8ms is the upshift time to a pre-selected gear. That is, for example, changing from 1st to 2nd where 2nd is already selected on the even gear clutch.

Downshifts and shifts where the behaviour is abnormal (for example pulling the shift paddle while holding a steady cruise in 5th) are a bit longer, up to a maximum of 600ms per gear, or potentially 1100ms for something completely the opposite of what was anticipated by the ECU. But as the 60ms quoted by Ferrari is also anticipated upshift time, the same caveats apply.

In general though, the learning ECU means you rarely see the longer shift times on the DSG box.

 

[Dr Who]

8ms is the time the road wheels spend without power, and Dolph is 100% correct, it is for normal shifting anticipated, outside of this changing down instead of up for example, again Dolph is accurate, but this was rare in my experience, and comparable with other transmissions. The DSG is an excellent system.

The only thing I disliked on the Golf was the nasty paddles which were merely microswitches and did not feel tactile. The stick was much nicer.

 

[PMKeates]

The 8ms is the upshift time to a pre-selected gear. That is, for example, changing from 1st to 2nd where 2nd is already selected on the even gear clutch.

I have seen that figure in a lot of places, and it's what I believed until recently, but I'm struggling to really be sure of it. There's no mention of it anywhere on VW's consumer or press websites, even going back years. Additionally, VW's website currently states "less than 40ms" for the DSG and DSG7 (though I realise that transmission does have some differences).

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/dsg

I am personally interested in this. I will see what I can find out from Volkswagen UK today.

8ms is the time the road wheels spend without power

Is that any power or "full" power as if the gear was fully engaged?

 

[Dolph]

I have seen that figure in a lot of places, and it's what I believed until recently, but I'm struggling to really be sure of it. There's no mention of it anywhere on VW's consumer or press websites, even going back years. Additionally, VW's website currently states "less than 40ms" for the DSG and DSG7 (though I realise that transmission does have some differences).

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/dsg

I am personally interested in this. I will see what I can find out from Volkswagen UK today.Is that any power or "full" power as if the gear was fully engaged?

Looks like they are going for an average shift time, rather than an absolute shortest time possible.

 

[86JR]

I'm test driving the S tronic and manual versions later this month.

Not an S3, but my father has the Audi A3 Sportback 1.8T 6 speed manual. Standard, except for remap. Very nice to drive, stays in 6th most of the time, find you change from 4th or even 3rd straight to 6th. When pushing it a bit harder the gears are perfectly suited to speed, and is nice in traffic.

Hope that helps.

 

[Dr Who]

I am personally interested in this. I will see what I can find out from Volkswagen UK today.Is that any power or "full" power as if the gear was fully engaged?

Full power if you have your foot flat on the floor, any power if its not flat.

Depending on the vehicle speed, and amount of engine power being requested by the driver (full throttle, or part-throttle normal driving),[4] the DSG then upshifts. During this sequence, the DSG disengages the first outer clutch whilst simultaneously engaging the second inner clutch (all power from the engine is now going through the second shaft), thus completing the shift sequence. This sequence happens in 8 milliseconds (aided by pre-selection), and can happen even with full throttle opening, and as a result, there is virtually no power loss.

Downshifting is similar to upshifting but in reverse order, and is slower, at 600 milliseconds, due to the engine ECU needing to 'blip' the throttle, so that the engine crankshaft speed can match the appropriate gear shaft speed. The car's computer senses the car slowing down, or more power required (during acceleration), and thus engages a lower gear on the shaft not in use, and then completes the downshift.

Quote from wikipedia, so accuracy not guaranteed.

 

[wez130]

Really love the S3 sportback, and currently having the A3 sportback with DSG, i wouldnt't even consider the manual if i was looking again, the DSG is a fantastic box, though earlier versions went wrong - and were horrendously expensive to fix.

 

[PMKeates]

Quote from wikipedia, so accuracy not guaranteed.

Yeah, that's kind of my concern. The 8ms thing is kind of "common knowledge" but I can find very little to validate it. I am trying to dig through what I have from the original release.