new to me 2012 stop-start focus only starts after 8-15 tries

[R B Customs]

Sorry for the novel, It just saves people guessing and me answering loads of questions!

car: 1.6TDCI (115ps) '62 plate focus TIT-X estate (mk3, prefacelift), with stop-start, keyless entry (push button start), 120k on the clock (ex lease), appears to have original ford EF 110 battery.

A new to me car, which I bought not-so-locally from a garage / trader (not a main dealer) is playing up. basically it won't start, but eventually does. Theres' only been one occasion when I thought it was properly buggered where I had to let it roll forward into a (empty) junction and bump-start it! which worked!
yesterday I popped to aldi, i started fine when I left (had everything turned off - lights, radio, CC etc) I was in aldi for about 15 minutes and when I got back int he car it didn't start again for quite a number of tries.

it all started when I went away for the weekend last weekend. here's the facts (bulb stuff is just there as a fact - I don't believe it's a cause of anything)

-i changed the puddle lights, and boot interior lights to decent LED W5W bulbs
-I changed the front static cornering lights (H1) to nightbreakers (still halogen, just a bit whiter)
-we went away for the weekend and the boot may have been left open all night (facttory LED tail lights will have been lit, as well as boot interior lights, and possibly the reg plate light (stock, factory, unknown source could be halogen but looks whiter so may be LED)
-car seemed strange when I stated it in the morning of coming leaving the holiday - I knew the boot had been left open but started it and went on anyway.
-less than a mile later the car either A: cut out, B: I stalled it C: stop-start kicked in and I fumbled and stalled it (amazingly easy to forget about this function) - basically I'm not sure what happened.
-either way the car stopped and would not start again. AA came out, said it all checked out, but couldn't get it started either. eventually it started seemingly out of fluke.
-AA followed us around for a bit and then ran diagnostics through the OBD -there were 5 faults recorded but his system can't read them. We set off on our way home, I turned stop-start off and we didn't stop the engine until I got to the kennels to pick my dog up.
-the car sat for maybe 20 minutes and when we got back in it would not start - just a click from the engine bay. this was after 140 motorway miles, roughly 3 hours of driving.
-it took about 8 tries and eventually it fired up.

-the other day it would not start in the morning and took nearly 20 attempts. strangely it did turn the engine over once and a little cough could be heard. I believe the starter is engaging but not turning (hence the clicking)

I've been prodding around and trying different things, but I'm leaning towards thinking the battery may be at fault.

First thing this morning (car sat over night) I conducted the following tests:

TLDR: this is what happened this morning

-checked battery voltage across the terminals with a multimeter (battery still attatched)
-the voltage read 12.1
-I set the meter to measure the miniumum voltage, and tried to start the car. Nothing was on in the car (seats, radio, climate, lights etc)
-The car started and the minimum voltage recorded was about 8.4v
-when left to idle the voltage increased to around 14.4

with that in mind I think 12.1 is too low, 8.6 is too low too. is this a dead battery? I'm going to try sticking it on charge tonight to see how it goes tomorrow, but if you recall that 140mile motorway journey previously th car would not start 20 minutes after it - I would have thought that was plenty of time / miles to charge the battery but I may be wrong!

I haven't actually caught it not starting since, but now I'm keeping the meter in the car so I can record what happens when it doesn't start.

other notes:
-120k on the clock, '62 plate car, battery is a ford branded EFB 110 battery, so probably original.
-stop-start appears to work as normal
-DRL's have a slight flicker to them when the (bi-xenon) headlights are on (which is a lot as they're auto)
-a lot of toys turn on in the car when you get in - auto lights, climate seats, etc. I've been purposly turning these off before starting it since having trouble.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

I would fit a new battery and see if it clears the issue. 12.1v is fairly low for a resting voltage it should be around 12.6v

The car may still have an issue that has caused the dead battery, I would get the fault codes read with the correct software once you have fitted a new battery.

 

[R B Customs]

I would fit a new battery and see if it clears the issue. 12.1v is fairly low for a resting voltage it should be around 12.6v

The car may still have an issue that has caused the dead battery, I would get the fault codes read with the correct software once you have fitted a new battery.

thanks

I'm going to try and get hold of an OBD2 reader and some software (torque?) to see if I can read the codes that the AA could not - otherwise I will have to take it to Ford, I think.

I'll try and get the garage to send me a battery, they're £160

 

[grudas]

AA probably had a proper reader that supported way more protocols/manufacturers than a cheap obd2 reader will from ebay

those work fine for most engine codes but have no access to SRS etc systems

 

[pepsilol]

thanks

I'm going to try and get hold of an OBD2 reader and some software (torque?) to see if I can read the codes that the AA could not - otherwise I will have to take it to Ford, I think.

I'll try and get the garage to send me a battery, they're £160

There is nothing you could buy cheaply that would out do what AA had.

 

[Jonny ///M]

You'll get nowhere getting a battery from a garage.

12.1 is low, think my battery was higher when it was dying.

Have you checked the usual euro car parts/Car parts 4 less as they have discounts on most of the time.

 

[tom_e]

thanks

I'm going to try and get hold of an OBD2 reader and some software (torque?) to see if I can read the codes that the AA could not - otherwise I will have to take it to Ford, I think.

I'll try and get the garage to send me a battery, they're £160

£71.99 from Euro car parts.

 

[R.C.Anderson]

As others have said, 12.1V is fairly low for rest. I wouldn't worry about the 8.6V whilst starting though, all batteries drop to around there whilst cranking due to the huge current draw.

As you've said it sometimes starts after multiple tries, I would move away from it being a battery issue, as if it was, it would start first time, or not at all. It's still possible it's a battery issue, but IMO it's less likely.

How long have you had the car for? If it's pretty new to you, I would say take it back to the garage you bought it from and let them sort it out.

As fault finding, in order to rule out the battery you can try using a friend jump starting you to see if it fails to start then as well. If it still fails to start with a friend jumping you, it's probably an issue with the starter itself.

 

[R B Customs]

I bought a cheap blutooth reader anyway, for the sake of a fiver it may get the codes which I can decode elsewhere, or it may just be a bit of fun, worth a try.

The AA actually made a remark about his reader / software claiming it was actually pretty crap on newer fords, he can't use it on his own van and it causes him loads of problems with customer cars in general.

re: £71.99 battery - it needs an EFB / AGM battery (requirement of stop start) - euro car parts worked this out if you use the reg number. their cheapest 'lion brand' EFB battery is £116. so you wern't to know.

I've found the latest varta / bosch AGM battery for £160 ish, and a few others for £140 ish - avoiding the cheaper stuff)

I've not had the car long, and the fault appeared within a week of ownership so I'll be pushing the garage as much as possible.

I got it with driving in mind! including driving to europe, so I don't mind paying a bit extra for a better battery if needed, I just had an inital shock (ha) when I saw the price!

As others have said, 12.1V is fairly low for rest. I wouldn't worry about the 8.6V whilst starting though, all batteries drop to around there whilst cranking due to the huge current draw.

As you've said it sometimes starts after multiple tries, I would move away from it being a battery issue, as if it was, it would start first time, or not at all. It's still possible it's a battery issue, but IMO it's less likely.

How long have you had the car for? If it's pretty new to you, I would say take it back to the garage you bought it from and let them sort it out.

As fault finding, in order to rule out the battery you can try using a friend jump starting you to see if it fails to start then as well. If it still fails to start with a friend jumping you, it's probably an issue with the starter itself.

I'm with you there, I'm just side tracked a bit by th low readings on the battery when measured - it may be a bit of both?

I've had the car about 3 weeks now, and I bought it 80 miles away, I think it will end up going back to be fair, but until then I'll investigate!

with regards to jump starting The AA couldn't jump start it (sorry that's just come back to me) so maybe we're looking at the starter motor, or other parts of the starting system that could be at fault.

stop-start functionality works as expected and I leave it enabled now with no fear. I know that it won't let the engine stop if it hasn't got the juice to start it again so maybe with the very short durations at play here the battery is just fresh enough to let start-stop function, but when it's been left for a while (20 mins plus) it can't crank, even if the car is thouroughly warmed up
there's certainly a click to be heard when you press the start button.

this leads me back to thinking it's the battery at fault and the readings are not just a coincidence.

daft one isn't it!

 

[R.C.Anderson]

If the AA was unable to jump it, I would say it's highly unlikely to be the battery, and more likely the starter isn't engaging properly (could even be a loose connection to the starter) either way, I wouldn't be accepting anything less than the place you bought it from investigating & paying for the repair, especially as you've only had it a few weeks.

 

[Kiethton]

Had similar on an old Astra, but it wouldn't start when warm

I was told it was the cam shaft sensor, could be that yours is just a bit flakey?

 

[Building Candy]

12.1 lol theres your problem. should be 13v or there abouts at rest. Diesel's need a bit more ompff to start them, add stop start into the mix and it puts a lot of strain on a battery.

 

[Fr0dders]

If the AA was unable to jump it, I would say it's highly unlikely to be the battery, and more likely the starter isn't engaging properly (could even be a loose connection to the starter) either way, I wouldn't be accepting anything less than the place you bought it from investigating & paying for the repair, especially as you've only had it a few weeks.

sometimes batteries can be so low they can't even be jump started. I've had this before on my volvo which needed loads of juice to start.

Give a new battery a try definitely.

 

[Orionaut]

As others have said, 12.1V is fairly low for rest. I wouldn't worry about the 8.6V whilst starting though, all batteries drop to around there whilst cranking due to the huge current draw.

I would regard 8.6V on cranking as low. Shouldn't drop below 10.5 really.(Even on a big diesel)


This doesn't mean automatically that it is the battery however. It depends on where you are taking the measurement (IE On the actual lead battery terminals or somewhere else) or you could have a faulty starter that is drawing excessive current.

Having said that, I would not be surprised at the idea of stop/start systems being battery/starter killers. The amount of fuel you might save is likely to be far outweighed by the cost of replacing battery/starter-motors every couple of years!

 

[cuke2u]

Clutch pedal sensor? This is needed for start/stop and if the battery volts are too low then the Start/Stop will not operate anyway, ie it will not automatically stop the engine, I had a 2011 ecoboost and the Start?Stop hardly worked because I only did journey's of 5 miles or so, the focus system seems to be more sensitive..

 

[R B Customs]

little update here:

-This morning I took a reading of 12.09v
-the car started first time but I had all power sucking devices turned off.
-I drove to work (about 20 miles, took over an hour)
-the drive was mostly in traffic, some motorway, bright day so no lights were on. radio was on low.
-parked and stopped car / turned engine off
-took a reading of 12.17v across the terminals


I've just ordered a new battery which will come tomorrow! I ordered a Varta F21 AGM battery, with a discount code it was around £130

I read that dropping below 9.6 when cranking was bad news '9.6v' is the magic number - but I took that with a pinch of salt as it may not apply to modern cars like this but I had it in my mind as a reference point.

THe starter motor is still all to play for an I haven't investigated it yet, I'm not really sure how to be fair. I know that stop-start starter motors are very heavy duty though! they won't be standard units.

one last interesting point - when I was sitting in traffic last night I was going through the menus and noticed that a lot of settings had been reset - lights used to stay on for 20 seconds after leaving the vehicle for example - that had been reset, as wlel as another few options.

Will forward all details to the garage, but their service manager is on holiday til the end of feb so probably won't get anywhere. I also don't have a free weekend coming up til march - I have plans for every weekend in feb so won't be able to take it over to get it looked at til then. The problem is logged though and they will deal with it. (service manager has been quite responsive to be fair)

 

[cuke2u]

Start/stop systems have different starters and alternators, plus they have not only battery voltage monitors but coolent, ambient exterior and interior sensors for the system. Also the start/stop will not operate if the climate set to very high or low temperatures http://de.bosch-automotive.com/en/p...start_stop_system/overview_start_stop_sytem_1

 

[Solus]

I'd bet crank sensor.

 

[Scania]

I would regard 8.6V on cranking as low. Shouldn't drop below 10.5 really.(Even on a big diesel)

My Scania (13litre big diesel ) drops to ~23V on starting from stone cold, runs at ~28V @ 56MPH, it has two 12V batteries, 24V system.

Whilst, of course, it could be other things, I'd guess the OP's battery is borked, and at its age and miles, assuming its original, I'm not surprised.

 

[IAmATeaf]

Sorry if this has already been asked or answered but when my wifes Yaris had starting problems which was fixed by replacing the battery, the stop/start system in it never ever engaged even after a really long run. So when running does it ever stop/start?