New TV & Speakers?

xPETEZx

xPETEZx

xPETEZx

Associate
Joined
10 Feb 2021
Posts
608
I currently have a 7yr old 49" Samsung TV (forget exact model) paired with an Onkyo TX-NR515 amp, and Tannoy SFX5.1 speaker system.

The Subwoofer on the SFX5.1 system recently failed. I tried a repair, but to no avail.
Looking around the usual AV stores, seems that a 'decent' subwoofer replacement would cost about £150 at least, but often much more. (Cheapest I found is a Yamaha NSSW050 for £119, but apparently that does not even auto power on/off?)

This got me looking for 2nd hand replacements, and again found things in the range of £90 - £120. Of course these come with no warranties / guarantees.

As my SFX5.1 system is now over 10yrs old, I thought id take a look at what a whole new set would cost... seems I can get the 5-star rated Wharfdale DX2 for £350 + a 6yr warranty!

While on the store page which has the DX2's for £350... I saw the TV I have been considering is also on sale.
I can get the LG OLED55C14LB for £940, which is below that "£1000" point Id promised myself Id buy for it if it dipped below!
Now I know the C2 is due out next month, but it looks like for the same size Id be paying a heck of a lot more than the C1. So not sure thats an option. Esp as early reviews dont seem to suggest its a huge upgrade?


So what started out as looking to spend around £120 on a new subwoofer has now esclated to spending possibly £1350 on a new TV & Speaker package!

I have a couple questions to this:

1.) Will my TX-NR515 be letting the side down here?
2.) Could I use any of the speakers from my SFX5.1 system as to complement the new DX2 5.1 system to make a 7.1 system? Or even in future use them for height speakers?
Or would they just be letting the side down and better off selling them?

Any thoughts and suggestions welcome!
AV isnt my strong suit. And it seems it can get very expensive very very quickly.
I am not looking to spend anymore really... maybe a couple hundred if it makes a big difference.

Thanks!
 
Your Onkyo should work just fine with the wharfdales, just dig out the setup microphone and run the Audyssey calibration process again.

As for the using the SFX to add extra channels. Best thing to do is try it out. If you like the effect but not the sound quality you can look at buying better speakers to fill those channels.

Might be worth considering the Q Acoustics 3000 package. Only 100 more but you can buy the speakers in pairs to fill the extra channels and it gives you an upgrade path if you decide to replace the left and right fronts with floorstanders.

Best thing is to try and get a demo, have a listen and go from there.

For the TV, if £1k is the threshold and you can get the 55C1 at that price with a decent warranty I say go for it, you wont be disappointed.
 
Thanks :)

I find AV can slippery slope so easily.... I just had a google around about the Q Acoustics, and it seems people recommending swapping the sub out, or adding floor standers. Or going with the 3010i package...
And before you know it... £450 has become £1200! :cry:

To my un-trained ears, who have enjoyed my £150 SFX5.1 system for the last decade, Its probably all wasted money anyway.

Realistically, I would like to keep this system probably as-is for the next decade...
I only even mentioned adding heights or extra surrounds, as Id have the SFX5.1s left over to collect dust.

Mulling it over and might pull the trigger this evening.

Now wondering if I really want a TV with WebOS instead of Android TV. But then... I have a Google TV already I can just move across if I find webOS lacking. Decisions decisions :D
 
For powering any new speaker the Onkyo will still work fine. Where things probably will change is when you come to make use of the new TV's facilities such as UHD resolution and HDR including Dolby Vision.

My guess is that your old Samsung is 1080p, or if its a UHD 4K set then it's probably doesn't have the added features such as HDR or support for some of the advanced gaming modes now available from new consoles if you happen to be a gamer. That means you may have been routing your current sources through the amp first, and from there on to the TV.

The new telly will do more. If you're an Amazon Prime or Disney+ subscriber, of if have a premium Netflix sub then you'll be able to view stuff in UHD resolution with HDR. That's going to make you smile. You'll be able to do that from the TV's built-in apps. Of course you'll want sound for those too, and IIRC the 515 has ARC as well as Optical, so either way you can get sound from the TV. Streaming apps don't use anything better than DD5.1/DD+5.1 so ARC will cope with those.

Where things will become trickier is with external sources. There's a recent thread on this for a C1 owner with a Yamaha YSP2200 sound bar. The signal range and connectivity options on that sound bar are very similar to your 515 and so the thread has relevant info for you too depending on the sources you use. Here's a link: LG C1 and Yamaha YSP 2200 Soundbar - no DTS via ARC | Overclockers UK Forums and you might want to skip ahead and read from post #27


Although the DX2 system is better than the Tannoy kit, I'm not convinced it will be night and day better. The weak spot with both kits is the sub. I'm not knocking either; they're both good kits. It's simply that there's only so much that can be done within each system's budget when it comes to building subs.

A sub doesn't need to be the same brand as the main surround speakers. You can mix and match. For a little more than your Yamaha sub budget you can pick up a BK Gemini II as a used buy (around £150). The performance is in a different league. There's a BK Monolith on the 'Bay too, currently sitting at £150 opening with 0 bid and 4 days to go. BK Electronics Monolith 12 Inch Ported Subwoofer Light Oak | eBay

Other brands to look at include Monitor Audio, certain KEF and REL models, B&W. You're looking for something with a 10" or 12" driver and then checking some of the past reviews.

What sources do you have?
 
lucid said:
For powering any new speaker the Onkyo will still work fine. Where things probably will change is when you come to make use of the new TV's facilities such as UHD resolution and HDR including Dolby Vision.

My guess is that your old Samsung is 1080p, or if its a UHD 4K set then it's probably doesn't have the added features such as HDR or support for some of the advanced gaming modes now available from new consoles if you happen to be a gamer. That means you may have been routing your current sources through the amp first, and from there on to the TV.

The new telly will do more. If you're an Amazon Prime or Disney+ subscriber, of if have a premium Netflix sub then you'll be able to view stuff in UHD resolution with HDR. That's going to make you smile. You'll be able to do that from the TV's built-in apps. Of course you'll want sound for those too, and IIRC the 515 has ARC as well as Optical, so either way you can get sound from the TV. Streaming apps don't use anything better than DD5.1/DD+5.1 so ARC will cope with those.

Where things will become trickier is with external sources. There's a recent thread on this for a C1 owner with a Yamaha YSP2200 sound bar. The signal range and connectivity options on that sound bar are very similar to your 515 and so the thread has relevant info for you too depending on the sources you use. Here's a link: LG C1 and Yamaha YSP 2200 Soundbar - no DTS via ARC | Overclockers UK Forums and you might want to skip ahead and read from post #27


Although the DX2 system is better than the Tannoy kit, I'm not convinced it will be night and day better. The weak spot with both kits is the sub. I'm not knocking either; they're both good kits. It's simply that there's only so much that can be done within each system's budget when it comes to building subs.

A sub doesn't need to be the same brand as the main surround speakers. You can mix and match. For a little more than your Yamaha sub budget you can pick up a BK Gemini II as a used buy (around £150). The performance is in a different league. There's a BK Monolith on the 'Bay too, currently sitting at £150 opening with 0 bid and 4 days to go. BK Electronics Monolith 12 Inch Ported Subwoofer Light Oak | eBay

Other brands to look at include Monitor Audio, certain KEF and REL models, B&W. You're looking for something with a 10" or 12" driver and then checking some of the past reviews.

What sources do you have?
Click to expand...

Thank you, this has highlighted some things I hadn't quiet given enough thought to.

My sources currently are a PS5, a Sony Blu-Ray Player and a Google TV.
I was planning to connect the PS5 direct to the TV so that Id benefit from HDMI2.1 features, and VRR once the PS5 finally gets support for that.
I would leave the rest of the sources connected to the Amp.

I think in this configuration I would be ok? Id still get surround sound on games from the PS5, as that wouldn't be DTS. Its either LCPM (what I have set now) or DD I believe?
I dont intend to use the PS5 for anything but gaming really. Any DVDs/Blu-Rays we watch would be using the Sony Blu-Ray player that would remain attached to the AVR. So I should still be able to enjoy DD/DTS/DD-HD/DTS-Master? (I cant quiet remember all the formats my old Amp supports!)

I would try using the built-in Apps on the C1, so Netflix, Amazon Prime & Plex. I do have some stuff on my Plex encoded with DTS, so I guess to watch that Id need to stream it via the Google TV still connected to the Amp.

You have brought me full circle on the Speakers / Sub thing.
Maybe I am just better off buying a new (used?) sub for my current speakers. Then maybe maybe in the future just buy seperate speakers?
I was just concerned spending £150+ on a used sub, given I have no recourse if it where to break even a few weeks or months later. Its what drew me to the DX2 + 6yr warranty.

Ill continue to think it over! Lots of food for thought.

I briefly looked at the Sony A90J, but god dam thats a lot extra for what seems to be only a little better performance.
 
Perhaps I asked the wrong question all along!

Could anybody maybe recommend a new sub for up to £350? I know its frequently recommend to buy audio gear used.. but I just don't know if I trust spending that much on something with no warranty.

It seems every topic I find where people ask for any Audio gear in the low-end market, the advice is always just to buy X or Y from a higher tier used...
And I know that probably gets you better bang for buck, but it does not get you a warranty :|
 
xPETEZx said:
Perhaps I asked the wrong question all along!

Could anybody maybe recommend a new sub for up to £350? I know its frequently recommend to buy audio gear used.. but I just don't know if I trust spending that much on something with no warranty.

It seems every topic I find where people ask for any Audio gear in the low-end market, the advice is always just to buy X or Y from a higher tier used...
And I know that probably gets you better bang for buck, but it does not get you a warranty :|
Click to expand...

Try looking at the BK Electronics range of subwoofers - they are highly regarded for their price points and would come in under the budget on some of their models.
 
Thanks!

Seems they mostly sell through an eBay store?

The Gemini 2 at £254 seems like a great price point.

Is there a huge gain to go up to the XLS200 for another £100?
 
LPCM from your PS5 direct to the 515 will give you discrete multi-channel surround audio in 5.1. The PS5 is decoding the signal internally and then sending it as 6 separate channels just like there are 6 RCA phono leads connected from console to amp.

When you send that same signal through the TV then the amp won't get all 6-channels. The TV can't pass it. It can only pass two channels in LPCM format. It can only pass stereo LPCM, which we abbreviate to PCM 2.0

A stereo signal doesn't have all the individual channels.... obviously. But it can still carry some surround signal information in the form of Dolby Surround. This is the one you use Dolby Pro-,Logic II Game / Movie / Music mode to decode.

I am a little out of touch with consoles, but if we use your Blu-ray player as an example, you can set that to downconvert DD / DTS and the HD audio surround formats in to stereo PCM with Dolby Surround encoding. That's how you get around the audio bottleneck of the TV and still have 4K gaming with VRR etc.

DD in 5.1 and DD+ which is DD with Atmos audio buried inside it using matrixing will both successfully pass through the TV via its ARC connection.

Your Google TV device isn't going to give you anything better than DD or DD+ from official streaming sources, so connect that to either the TV or the TV whichever is more convenient.

Regarding the subs, it's a bit of a punt, but I would still take a decent used sub over a far lesser new product.
 
xPETEZx said:
Thanks :)

I find AV can slippery slope so easily.... I just had a google around about the Q Acoustics, and it seems people recommending swapping the sub out, or adding floor standers. Or going with the 3010i package...
And before you know it... £450 has become £1200! :cry:

To my un-trained ears, who have enjoyed my £150 SFX5.1 system for the last decade, Its probably all wasted money anyway.

Realistically, I would like to keep this system probably as-is for the next decade...
I only even mentioned adding heights or extra surrounds, as Id have the SFX5.1s left over to collect dust.

Mulling it over and might pull the trigger this evening.

Now wondering if I really want a TV with WebOS instead of Android TV. But then... I have a Google TV already I can just move across if I find webOS lacking. Decisions decisions :D
Click to expand...

You can easily spend thousands.

Personally I've got 7.2.4 and it's worth every penny.

The q acoustic sub isn't great. Just be aware the 3010i are little speakers so they are compromised in that regard. I've got 3010i they're nice speakers for the money but bass shy so will need a good sub. That means more expensive sub. Checkout the monoprice monolith 10"

I get the feeling from guns in movies like you're really there (I've fired guns for real)
 
pepp77 said:
The LG has a built in Plex App. To be honest with the built in apps it is highly unlikely you will need any external device, and none would offer as good an experience anyway.
Click to expand...

The built in media player on the LG isn't bad it plays most of the files but some unusual audio/video codec can make it throw a fit. The amlogic logic Kodi box does a better job and for £50 was worth it
 
lucid said:
LPCM from your PS5 direct to the 515 will give you discrete multi-channel surround audio in 5.1. The PS5 is decoding the signal internally and then sending it as 6 separate channels just like there are 6 RCA phono leads connected from console to amp.

When you send that same signal through the TV then the amp won't get all 6-channels. The TV can't pass it. It can only pass two channels in LPCM format. It can only pass stereo LPCM, which we abbreviate to PCM 2.0

A stereo signal doesn't have all the individual channels.... obviously. But it can still carry some surround signal information in the form of Dolby Surround. This is the one you use Dolby Pro-,Logic II Game / Movie / Music mode to decode.

I am a little out of touch with consoles, but if we use your Blu-ray player as an example, you can set that to downconvert DD / DTS and the HD audio surround formats in to stereo PCM with Dolby Surround encoding. That's how you get around the audio bottleneck of the TV and still have 4K gaming with VRR etc.

DD in 5.1 and DD+ which is DD with Atmos audio buried inside it using matrixing will both successfully pass through the TV via its ARC connection.

Your Google TV device isn't going to give you anything better than DD or DD+ from official streaming sources, so connect that to either the TV or the TV whichever is more convenient.

Regarding the subs, it's a bit of a punt, but I would still take a decent used sub over a far lesser new product.
Click to expand...

Thanks for another detailed response!
So it sounds like the only option for getting 5.1 sound out of the PS5 that isn't 'simulated' (which Dolby Pro Logic etc are right?) is to set the PS5 to output Dolby Digital?
From what I read, this is inferior to using LPCM?

Seems like I have some reading / thinking to do...
Perhaps the C1 isn't quiet right for my needs after all.
 
hornetstinger said:
You can easily spend thousands.

Personally I've got 7.2.4 and it's worth every penny.

The q acoustic sub isn't great. Just be aware the 3010i are little speakers so they are compromised in that regard. I've got 3010i they're nice speakers for the money but bass shy so will need a good sub. That means more expensive sub. Checkout the monoprice monolith 10"

I get the feeling from guns in movies like you're really there (I've fired guns for real)
Click to expand...

7.2.4?? So 7 surround speakers, 2 subs and 4 height?
I don't think I could fit that many speakers into my living room :cry:

Im really not sure I can justify the costs to setup something like that.
Nor do I think I have the patience to do all the research to find what pairs well with what, then get it setup just right for my setup.

With 2 young kids, I like to use what time I get to just go ahead and game! I had little enough patience to work out my 3090's undervolt! :cry:
 
Also with smaller speakers that means you're sending more bass to a subwoofer that means need more capable sub.

Iecif I set my 7 speakers to small 60hz and your 7 speakers are small 120hz it means your sub had to play more bass than mine even though my mains are far more capable than yours
 
xPETEZx said:
Thanks for another detailed response!
So it sounds like the only option for getting 5.1 sound out of the PS5 that isn't 'simulated' (which Dolby Pro Logic etc are right?)...
Click to expand...

That's not quite correct.

Dolby Pro-Logic decoding works in two ways depending on the source signal

When the signal is just plain stereo then yes, it creates a pseudo-surround effect using some fancy algorithms and phasing. This is simulated surround... but it's not the only way DPL works.

The other way is REAL surround information. 100% genuine. Pukka. The proper thing. Absolutely authentic. (Hopefully that's got the idea across clearly?) So here's how it works:

In a mixing studio somewhere where an audio track is being laid down, or built in to a player or source device such as Blu-ray player, Sky box or games console, a Dolby Surround encoder takes the centre channel and rear surround channel(s) and applies some fancy mathematical process to add them to the stereo Left and Right signal in a way that is undetectable by ordinary stereo gear. This is called matrixing. So we now have what looks like an ordinary stereo signal but embedded inside it is a secret code with centre and surround info.

These stereo signals can be analogue or digital. We call digital stereo ... PCM or even LPCM.

When a stereo signal is played through an AV receiver with a Dolby Pro-Logic decoder the "secret bit" is reformed in to centre and surround channel info. Abracadabra.... Surround Sound.... not simulated.... the real thing.

So what's the catch?

Part of the maths and embedding process leaves a bit of cross pollution between the channels. There's a bit of left and right in the centre and surround channels. It can never be quite as clean as keeping all the channels separate all the way through which is what DD and DTS and the HD audio formats for BD do.

To recap then, DPL/DPL II decoding can have a stab at making a surround effect from plain stereo, but most of the time in AV gear it's possible to create a Dolby Surround encoded signal that's carried as stereo and then decoded back to proper surround sound albeit not quite as precise as DD etc.


xPETEZx said:
...is to set the PS5 to output Dolby Digital?
Click to expand...

Like I said before, consoles aren't my thing, but if DD is an option then go with that.


xPETEZx said:
From what I read, this is inferior to using LPCM?
Click to expand...

I'm sitting here smiling because the irony of that statement isn't lost on me.

A little over fifteen years ago when Blu-ray and HD-DVD were still trading blows the AV amp manufacturers were scrabbling to get up to speed on the new 'HD' audio formats. Some brands had models with decoding for both the Dolby and DTS HD audio signals. Some other brands didn't. Those missing the bitstream decoders promoted the idea of LPCM. The argument went 'it's the same quality whether decoded in the player or the amp'. Of course, early adopters really wanted that little illuminated logo that showed 'D True HD' or 'DTS-HD MA.'

Ten years ago - about the time you were buying your TX-NR 515 - Curry's and other retailers were still doing healthy business on Blu-ray home cinema systems. (Sound bars were still in their infancy.) £200-£250 would have got someone a 5.1 BD-based system with Bluetooth and maybe NFC along with a few other bells and whistles. However, anyone who came to forums such as this were recommended to give such systems a swerve and buy an AV receiver + 5.1 speaker package instead. For £250-£300 these didn't decode HD audio, but they did have HDMI inputs and LPCM compatibility. Once again, the message was that LPCM decoding in the player was every bit as good as Bitstream decoding in the amp. Besides, compared to the crappy all-in--one DVD/BD systems with their awful speakers and limit of DD & DTS decoding then even DPL II from a £300 AVR + speaker kit was miles better.

Now I am sitting here reading someone championing LPCM over everything else. It's not surprising. Even after a good couple of decades of surround sound there's still a lot of confusion about sound formats. Some of that comes from writers not properly explaining the context of things.

LPCM isn't a quality of audio in its own right. It's more like a transport pipe for whatever the source player had decoded.

Lets say you play a DVD on a console which is set to output audio as LPCM. The DVD has Dolby Digital audio. That's exactly what LPCM will deliver; decoded-and-lossy DD as a multichannel signal.

Now imagine you play the extras on that disc. They aren't made with DD audio. They have stereo sound with Dolby Surround encoding. That's exactly what LPCM will deliver to the amp; a stereo signal with Dolby Surround matrixed in to it. This time the player doesn't decode it. As far as it's concerned it's just a stereo signal. You'd use the DPL II decoder in your amp to further process the stereo in to surround.

Now imagine you swap to a Blu-ray player also set to LPCM. Let's say a film being played has 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio. That's exactly what the player will decode and deliver via LPCM; 8 channels of lossless HD audio.

In each of the above cases the amp receives audio as LPCM, but in each case the quality is different. It's the source signal rather than LPCM itself which determines the audio quality.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom