New Zalman CPU cooler, only runs at full-speed

wakou222

wakou222

wakou222

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Hi all... Some of you may remember that before New Year I had bought a new cooler. It seems that that thread has now been moved to the private CS forum.. I went ahead and fitted the fan....
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=HS-075-ZA&groupid=701&catid=2330&subcat=2355
Using the fan/cooler's 3-pin connector to the MB's 4-pin, as advised here, and by CS.
And now I have, as I feared, a horribly noisy fan which runs at its full speed and noise. Now, I have looked around in the BIOS, and tried enabling and disabling Q-Fan control and Cool 'n' Quiet.I have changed the voltage and temperature thresholds. Nothing slows the fan. The sensors in the BIOS are working. If I slow the fan by braking it with a finger, the RPM figure changes. I honestly cannot work out what might be wrong here... Can anyone advise?
ps, In openSuse linux, and in Parted Magic Live, lm_sensors sees the sensors, including the fan RPM. I don't usually use Windows, but have the tech preview of MSWin 10. Speedfan, again, sees and reports the temps and fan speeds, but I can see no way to change them. It seems to me that if I can't manually affect the speeds whilst at the BIOS stage, then OS tools won't either. My MB is an old M2N-MX, with an Athlon 2 64 5600. The BIOS is version 1004, the latest they released (in 2008!). I have tried running the board with the fan disconnected... (don't try this at home folks!) with the expected results, although the temps reported by OS were not very high before the crash (below 60 deg C).
Could it be that the MB has ALWAYS run its CPU fan at full? The stock AMD cooler was 4-pin


Code: 
sp 11:17:~> 
sensors
atk0110-acpi-0
Adapter: ACPI interface
Vcore Voltage:      +1.14 V  (min =  +0.85 V, max =  +1.60 V)
 +3.3 Voltage:      +3.34 V  (min =  +2.97 V, max =  +3.63 V)
 +5 Voltage:        +4.92 V  (min =  +4.50 V, max =  +5.50 V)
 +12 Voltage:      +12.61 V  (min = +10.20 V, max = +13.80 V)
CPU FAN Speed:     2250 RPM  (min =  800 RPM, max = 7200 RPM)
CHASSIS FAN Speed:    0 RPM  (min =  800 RPM, max = 7200 RPM)
CPU Temperature:    +30.0°C  (high = +60.0°C, crit = +95.0°C)
MB Temperature:     +29.0°C  (high = +45.0°C, crit = +95.0°C)

k8temp-pci-00c3
Adapter: PCI adapter
Core0 Temp:   +24.0°C  
Core0 Temp:   +26.0°C  
Core1 Temp:   +21.0°C  
Core1 Temp:   +25.0°C
 
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Have you tried enabling Q Fan and using Silent Mode or Optimal ?

The CPU Fan Profile Mode item appears when you enable the CPU Q-Fan Control feature.

CPU Q-Fan Control [Disabled]
Allows you to enable or disable the ASUS Q-Fan feature that smartly adjusts the fan speeds for more efficient system operation. Configuration options: [DISBALED] [Enabled]

ASUS M2N-MX 2-29CPU Fan Profile Mode [Optimal]
Allows you to set the appropriate CPU fan performance level. When set to [Optimal], the CPU fan speed automatically adjusts depending on the CPU temperature. Set this item to [Silent Mode] for silent CPU fan operation or [Performance Mode] to achieve the maximum CPU fan speed. Configuration options: [Optimal] [Silent Mode] [Performance Mode]
Click to expand...
 
Is this an asus motherboard? If so, on some models they removed support for 3 pin fans. Quite a few of the recent ones ive owned will only run a 3 pin fan at full speed when connected to the cpu fan header.
 
varkanoid said:
Have you tried enabling Q Fan and using Silent Mode or Optimal ?
Click to expand...

I don't appear to have those options.... If enabled, I can set voltage at start threshold, temperature at start, and temp for full thresholds...

setter said:
Is this an asus motherboard? If so, on some models they removed support for 3 pin fans. Quite a few of the recent ones ive owned will only run a 3 pin fan at full speed when connected to the cpu fan header.
Click to expand...
Thsi is a very old ASUS MB..
M2N-MX
http://www.asus.com/uk/Motherboards/M2NMX/
 
I havent owned any asus amd boards for a while now. But on intel chipset boards, 3 pin cpu fan support was removed with the P45 chipset on skt 775.
 
th_2015-01-04124711_zps4d0a23b8.jpg
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I think it is possible on newer boards. Though i always use 4 pin PWM fans on the cpu headers now.
 
varkanoid said:
Those settings I quoted were out of the manual for your motherboard. Page 2-30.
Click to expand...

Yes I realise that. I guess that the BIOS updates superceded those settings in the printed manual? A you can see from my picture, the newer BIOS settings have a much more granular and detailed set of options, by setting the temperatures etc. Unfortunately, it would seem that the MoBo only controls 4-pin PWM fans.
Ronald said:
Have you tried using "ASUS Cool''n''Quiet Utility V2.17.06 for Windows XP/XP 64bit/Vista 32bit/Vista 64bit" as listed on http://www.asus.com/uk/Motherboards/...Desk_Download/ ?
Click to expand...

I mentioned above that I do not use Windows, and that I only have a Win10 tech preview. No software will be able to do anything if it can't be done in BIOS(?) IIRC, the Cool 'n Quiet Utility does CPU throttling, in order to make a PC quieter when not under load....
 
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wakou222 said:
Yes I realise that. I guess that the BIOS updates superceded those settings in the printed manual? A you can see from my picture, the newer BIOS settings have a much more granular and detailed set of options, by setting the temperatures etc. Unfortunately, it would seem that the MoBo only controls 4-pin PWM fans.


I mentioned above that I do not use Windows, and that I only have a Win10 tech preview. No software will be able to do anything if it can't be done in BIOS(?) IIRC, the Cool 'n Quiet Utility does CPU throttling, in order to make a PC quieter when not under load....
Click to expand...

Reduce power use, and as a result cooling needs. Wouldn't call it throttling though as that is a different thing in modern CPU's to prevent thermal damage.

Have you had a look at this: http://possiblelossofprecision.net/?p=450 ?
If that doesn't work, it might not be possible in Windows either (But trying under Win 10 may be worth it)

If it cannot be done in Windows, I'd ask CS, as you only kept the cooler so far on their suggestion I believe.
 
Tealc said:
You are likely going to be stuck with inline resistor methods of reducing fan speed. Phanteks do a pwm to DC fan converter, similar to the ones I have built and sold for a few years, but at more than £10 it's not a particularly cheap solution.

..Come to think of it I used to use a Zalman fanmate on my old Zalman cooler. Maybe they can still be purchased.
.....http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=OA-000-ZA&groupid=701&catid=2331&subcat=189
Click to expand...




Thanks for sharing your expertise, folks. I like the Phanteks Hub idea.... I WAS going to RMA the cooler I have, as it was advertised as 4-pin, but maybe that hub might be a useful add-on, my case has three fans inside, which I have disconnected, because of the noise (they connect via molex, and are thus on full-speed). If I could connect them via the hub, they would run silent/very slow except when the CPU reaches a certain temp? I am not so sure about the Zalman fan-mate, looks a bit bodgy, and I would have to place it somewhere where I could access the knob, and remember to manually adjust it before putting the CPU under any strain...? But still, food for thought. I will wait until CS reply, before I make any decisions. Thanks again!

ps @Tealc I am just reading the thread referenced in your sig. re. controlling 3-pin fans using PWM info... Interesting stuff!
 
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wakou222 said:
ps @Tealc I am just reading the thread referenced in your sig. re. controlling 3-pin fans using PWM info... Interesting stuff!
Click to expand...

Thanks.

It's something I spent a lot of time looking at as like you I had loads of 3 pin fans and a motherboard that didn't do 3 pin control to the level I liked. There was nothing on the market at the time and some DIY solutions just didn't give the rpm feedback I wanted. I never used it with my Zalman cooler but it would have been much better than the fanmate. The fanmate for me is a set once and forget device. Just dial down the speed until it is ok for both idle and load.

My solution, still in use today, is similar to the Phanteks implementation but has the added feature of adjustment so you can actually change the speeds the fan works at. There must be at least 30 of my little home made circuits sitting inside OCuk forum member's computers.

I had considered obtaining one of the Phanteks to see how well it works in comparison with mine but haven't done so yet.
 
I asked about this on the "Tom's Hardware" forum, and a "Mainboard Guru" replied:

Alexiou said:
Some ASUS boards (newer ones) can control 3 pin fans with 4 pin headers, some not.
The CPU_Fan on your board can not control the 3 pin fan.
I suggest returning it.
Click to expand...

And I agree.

I have since run some tests, I connected the new fan, (still mounted on the CPU) on the 3-pin header on the MoBo, "CHA_FAN" which, as expected runs it at full speed, and reports its RPM back to BIOS and Software tools can see it. I then connected an old 4-pin stock AMD cooler to the CPU_FAN 4-pin header and let it run just sitting there. I found that the speed of the 4-pin was variable with CPU temperature, as expected.
But, having[strike]wasted[/strike] spent many hours researching this issue, I am still confused. Which is a perfectly normal state for me...
If I understand it correctly, PWM keeps the voltage at +12v but varies the (average) current supplied to to the fan according to instructions supplied either from settings in BIOS or by the OS with a application like SpeedFan or its linux equivalent. If this is right, and Alexiou is correct in saying that my MoBo does not do voltage control, (I have no reason to doubt him), then why are settings available in the BIOS refer to "voltage"... Here is a terrible photo of those options, click to enlarge...

 
JRS said:
Can you set the fan start speed temp any lower than 45ºC?
Click to expand...

IIRC, it goes down to 41ºC, I will check next reboot, if I remember...
Even with the 4-pin PWM fan attached, it does not actually stop below that threshold temp, in fact is spins quite rapidly even at idle, but ramps up incrementally as the CPU temp rises. TBH, I would prefer it to go slower than it actually does, when the CPU is cold, as it is for 95% of the time, but I can rig that with lm-sensors scripts, or with SpeedFan in Windows..
 
wakou222 said:
Then why are settings available in the BIOS refer to "voltage"... Here is a terrible photo of those options, click to enlarge...
Click to expand...

Maybe the 4.5v is derived from a PWM duty cycle percentage rather than an actual voltage reading. I know my fan controller reports voltages on its display but when probed they are way off the actual voltage.

The PWM implementation for PC fans is a 5v square wave that switches the 12v motor on and off at >20kHz. By varying the amount of on time to off time the fan speed is affected. If you measure the output fan voltage it will have a more or less linear relationship to the incoming PWM duty cycle. Maybe this is where 4.5v comes from.

wakou222 said:
Even with the 4-pin PWM fan attached, it does not actually stop below that threshold temp, in fact is spins quite rapidly even at idle, but ramps up incrementally as the CPU temp rises. TBH, I would prefer it to go slower than it actually does, when the CPU is cold, as it is for 95% of the time, but I can rig that with lm-sensors scripts, or with SpeedFan in Windows..
Click to expand...

The PWM controller on the motherboard will maintain a certain duty cycle. I'm not sure if fans also ensure that a minimum speed is maintained. I've never actually tested this with the PWM fans I have on my workbench to see what happens if I drop it extra low.
 
And another question (stop me if I am boring you!) My new 'mid-range' (ie cheap) case came with three case fans. They have Molex connectors with two wires. Plugged to the PSU, they are stupidly noisy, but this is to be expected. Can PWM reduce the speed of a fan with only two wires? Or is my only option to reduce the DC voltage being fed to them, with a resistor or pot/rheostat? (I never did know the diff!)
 
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