Newbie OC questions

xibxang

xibxang

xibxang

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Joined
22 Nov 2005
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75
Dear all,

After a bit of close lurking on this here board, I'm now taking tentative steps to embarking on my own OCing hobby. I was wondering if I could call on some of you experts for a bit of advice. My current rig is as follows:

AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice
ASUS A8N-E Motherboard
BFG Tech GeForce 7800GT
4 x Kingston KVR400X64C3A/512 RAM

Everything has standard stock cooling. Now, I've just placed an order for the following from OverClockers:

DFI LanParty UT NF4 Ultra-D (Socket 939) PCI-Express Motherboard
Zalman CNPS9500-LED Aero Flower (Socket 939/754/478/775) CPU Cooler
Zalman VF700-CU Quiet Copper VGA Cooler

I've also kinda built a plan around what I've bought and what I plan to buy in the future and I just wanted to check that I haven't missed anything, but at the same time making sure that I'm not taking on too much at once.

Obviously, tomorrow will consist of installing my new motherboard and CPU cooler, then re-installing windows (XP Home Edition). No doubt I'll probably fit the new cooler to my graphics card since it'll be taken out anyway.

My first step will be to start overclocking my CPU. Thanks to the pinned guide at the top of this board, I've had a go on my current setup. So far so OK - I've had some increase in performance - only I'm now being beaten for heat (hence the new coolers).

I've noticed that the VGA cooler pack comes with some RAM heatsinks. Next month, I intend to take out my current RAM and replace it with G.Skill 2GB DDR HZ PC4000 (2x1GB) CAS3 Dual Channel Kit. Would it be worth attempting to fit these heatsinks to my current RAM in the mean time? I'm told that Kingston RAM isn't the best for overclocking with - especially since it's 4 sticks of it. Would this be the case? Would I be best just to wait until I get my new RAM before fitting these heat sinks?

The next part - once the CPU's been OC'ed to a stable level - is to have a go at my Graphics card, which I don't have a clue about as yet. I'm in absolutely no rush to get any part of this finished. I'm just now keen to start having a go at overclocking a system. I've been building my own systems for 7 years now and haven't attempted to overclock one of them until this week.

Sorry if I've missed any detail to this. I'm just wondering if I'm going about this the right way? Should I give the overclocking a serious go with my current RAM or wait until I get the G.Skill stuff? Any advice would be most appreciated.
 
A couple of quick pointers.

The ram sinks with the VGA cooler are for the ram chips on the VGA card as the new cooler will often not contact the chips as the OEM version did. The new ram will have metal ram sinks fitted. Usually as flat plates clipped to the DIMMS.

You can overclock the CPU nicely with your current memory. Just use the memory divider to keep the speed around DDR400 and all should be well. Also remember to drop the HTT multiplier to 4x for up to 250 HTT and 3x above that.

The two single 1GB sticks will be better once you have them and then you can experiment with the best memory timings.

Ensure you have good case cooling. The heatsinks are only efficient if you have a good supply of cool air moving through the case

My venice 3200 would run at 2.5Ghz with stock votage and cooling

Enjoy
 
Excellent, thanks very much. And here was me thinking that the RAM sinks were for my system RAM. :o

I've been reading the forum most of the day and have picked up that a lot of importance is placed on air flow through the entire PC case. Right now I have a 120mm Antec fan (it's an Antec case) at the rear which seems to be able to pull air through nicely. There's also the usual standard-issue spaces at the front of the case for an 80mm fan should the need arise.

One more question. At the side panel of the case there's a couple of exhaust vents, one of which has an extendable 'trumpet' type arrangement that sits over the CPU fan. Obviously this is to help exhaust the heat from the chip right out of the case. I imagine that one the Zalman cooler is installed then this trumpet will have to be removed due to space constraints. Would it be best to just leave this as a grill, or should I stick a fan on that vent too?

Thanks in advance (again).
 
A 120 fan should be ok, the best guide is to feel the air thats exhausted. If it feels warm the you need more airflow. It should feel room temperature or slightly aired for best results. The heatsink will always be a fixed temperature above the air temperature for a give heat input (load) therefore the cooler the air the cooler your CPU.

The side panel will be an air intake to allow the CPU fan to draw fresh air. If you want to replace this with a fan then that should be fine. The best result would be to enlarge the hole and fit a 120mm fan blowing in but if this isn't possible a 80mm is better than nothing.

AD
 
Many thanks again for the responses. 2 questions for you:

"Put your multiplier on a low setting (10)" - Mine is set at 4.5. I take it that 10 is classed as a 'low' value in this case, and 4.5 is regarded as high? I'm probably exposing just how much of a newbie I am here, but I'd prefer to be clear on this point.

"Firstly, you need to set AGP & PCI locks to on or AGP=66mhz and PCI=33mhz" - In the case of a PCI-E slot, I'm setting this to 33mhz, yeah?

Sorry if this has been covered a million times. I think I know the answers to these questions. Once I know for sure, then I think I'll have sussed it (on a beginner level).
 
With the Ultra D, the PCI-E speed should be set to 100MHz. Which multiplier is that you're referring to? The CPU multi or the HTT multi? Once you've done it a few times and learnt your way around the DFI BIOS, it'll all become second nature to you. The Ultra D has one of the best BIOSs around as well, lots of stuff to tweak:)
 
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Street said:
With the Ultra D, the PCI-E speed should be set to 100MHz. Which multiplier is that you're referring to? The CPU multi or the HTT multi? Once you've done it a few times and learnt your way around the DFI BIOS, it'll all become second nature to you. The Ultra D has one of the best BIOSs around as well, lots of stuff to tweak:)
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear in my last post. I'm currently playing around in my ASUS A8N-E motherboard BIOS to see if I have a grasp of the principles of overclocking (The DFI board doesn't arrive until tomorrow, so this is a bit of a dry run).

In the BIOS I'm fiddling with now, There are the following settings:

CPU Frequency: [200-400] Default: 200
PCI Express Clock: [100-145] Default: 100
DDR Voltage: [2.60V-3.00V] Default: 2.6V
CPU Multiplier: [x4 - x10] Default: x4
CPU Voltage: [1.550V - 0.800V] Defualt: 1.550V
PCI Clock Synchronisation: [AUTO, To CPU, 33.33mhx] Default: AUTO

I *think* that's what the default values are, although I'm not so sure about CPU Multiplier and CPU Voltage. Their scales seem to run in the opposite direction to the rest. I'm probably compounding things by trying to 'learn' it all on my current motherboard, only to move it all to the DFI board tomorrow. Like I say, I was only trying to get a handle on things.

So, in an attempt to make things clear (to me), what should I have the above ranges set to, if I've just powered my system on before attempting to overclock it?
 
Actually, I think I've twigged with it all. Thanks for all the help so far, guys. No doubt I'll be back with more questions later. :)
 
The CPU multi is the value that you multiply the CPU frequency by to get the total speed, should be around 10. Mine is 11... 11x200 = 2.2GHz, think the 3200s are 2GHz so it should be 10. The CPU voltage should be around 1.4, im running mine at 1.45 with my overclock, I'd consider 1.55 too high on air myself.

The settings on the DFI will probably have different names, but I'm sure you can figure out which is which... Have fun with your new board tomorrow! :)
 
OK, got my DFI nF4 Ultra-D installed and I've been starting to try to overclock it. Please forgive me if I've missed anything out that should be in.

So far I've got my FSB (this is an AMD Athlon 64 3200+) to 235 with a multiplier of 10. My RAM (DDR400) is on a FSB:6/DRAM:5 ratio which is obviously keeping the RAM at just under 200mhz. I haven't touched any voltages yet. If I try to take the FSB any higher, then certain games and applications start to protest.

My attention now turns to adjusting voltages up slightly to help support a faster FSB. Since my RAM is on a divider, I take it that I leave its voltages well alone and instead turn to adjusting VCore? Would this be the case? I'm basing this on an assumption that since my RAM isn't ideal for overclocking, the idea is to just put it on a divider in a bid to 'limp with it' sort of thing. Maybe I've got it all wrong (probably).

One other question. The pinned newbie guide says it's better to have as high a FSB as possible while being stable, and to that end the multiplier should be set low e.g 10. Well, the likes of the DFI board and my old ASUS board all seem to be able to go down as low as 4.5. Is 4.5 just too low, or is there another optimal level to start at?

Thanks for all of the help so far. This overclocking business is a bit fun.
 
Yeh, if you're running on a divider and keeping the memory at 200MHz then you probably won't need to touch the memory voltage. Just knock the vcore up slightly, then run Prime95 for a while and see if it still causes problems at that speed. Dividers have been shown to not really affect performance on A64 systems so its not too bad running it on a divider... obviously its better at 1:1, but if you can't its not great loss.

As for the CPU multis... Try not to use .5 multis, stick to whole numbers. I've kept my multi as high as it will go. I can get my FSB up to 275x10 for 2.75GHz, but then I have to run my RAM on a divider anyway to keep it at 250MHz, so I found it was best to keep the multi at 11 and change the FSB to 250 for 2.75GHz and keep the RAM at 1:1. Its all down to each system I suppose and how people prefer doing it. The end result will probably be the same.
 
I've got my eye on the G.Skill 2GB DDR HZ PC4000 (2x1GB) CAS3 Dual Channel Kit but that won't be for another month or so until I work the OT to pay for the upgrade, heh. My 4xKingston 512 sticks will just have to do until then but I can always tuse seom learning at this stage anyway.

I'll have a tamper with vcore adjustments tomorrow so thanks for the info. I also treated myself to a Zalman CNPS9500and a Zalman VF700-CU Quiet Copper VGA Cooler and they're both installed too. I must say that I'm impressed with all of it and it's got my inner Geek's juices flowing.

This whole project's been inspired by the total resource hog that is EverQuest 2. Even with the minor tweaking on the new mobo, it's already running so much smoother than on my ASUS motherboard so I'm not sure if I'll even push this system to its limits. I take it increasing VCore by a couple of 0.25V notches wouldn't be too 't3h h4rdc0r3'? I also read somewhere that the Ultra-D can be modded to allow SLi modes. Not that I necessarily would go that way, but it's interesting all the same.

Anyway, thanks again for the help. I'm making myself a very handy set of crib notes thanks to this thread.
 
Should be a bit better when you get the new RAM, 2 sticks will be better than 4, you'll be able to run it at 1T. Unless you're planning on running at really high FSB speeds I'd go for the 3200 ZX sticks over the HZ, they'll give you tighter timings and also a bit of room for overclocking. A64s prefer tighter timings over higher bandwidth from what I've read so the ZX will do alrite even if you have to run it on a divider.

The Zalman gfx cooler is a good one, I've got one on my X850, a lot better than the Arctic ones in my experience, just cant wait for the new VF900 to be in stock:)

As for the vcore... Many will say 1.55V is about the max recommended on air, although I personally don't like going over 1.5V. I've found I can reach 2.72GHz at 1.425V, to get any higher I had to raise that to 1.475 and to get to 2.8GHz I had to raise it to 1.5V. I wasn't really happy at running it at 1.5, and I thought it was probably best to run it at [email protected]. Figured the extra speed increase wasn't worth the extra voltage.

Not too sure on the Ultra D SLI mod, have heard things about it but never really looked into it...
 
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RAM Timings is something I'm going to try to completely avoid until the actual day arrives when I buy new stuff. That way I can take the time to get used to OCing my CPU and maybe even move on to doing the same on my BFG Tech 7800GT. I know it comes already pre-overclocked, so I don't know if it's worth tryng to push it. It's be nice if I could but I'm not gonna be bothered if I can't.

The only thing that makes me nervous about the Zalman GFX cooler is that the VRAM heat sinks just look a lot less up to the job compared with the fairly hefty slab of copper that comes from the BFG Tech factory. Also, one pair of chips don't sit directly under (the other hree pairs do) the heatsink/fan arrangement at all which makes me wonder if they're getting any airflow. That said, there's probably about 3 times more air per sec flowing through my case per hour now than there was last night, and all the readings seem to be showing no problems. It's probably me being a bit cautious. Idle temperature is roughly 4degrees less too.

What temperature range would I be trying to maintain at idle and under load? Again, this is a gaming machine.
 
OK Streets, my last set of dumb questions for the evening. :rolleyes:

I was looking over my BIOS settings (I assume you have the same DFI mobo, yeah?) and started to wonder exactly which variables let me tweak vcore. Nothing's obvious to me, but I've included a list of what I saw and wasn't so sure of (most of it). Maybe you could shed some light on things? :

CPU VID Startup Value
CPU Vid Control
CPU VID Special Control
LDT Voltage Control
Chipset Voltage Control (I'm guessing this has much to do with the nForce4 chipset?)
DRAM Voltage Control

There's also the voltage montitor on that page that looks like it's greyed out. I take it you're supposed to be able to make adjustments in this screen and can see the resuls on that readout? Quite Handy.

So what am I fiddling with (oo er) to adjust vcore?
 
Yeh, I've got the Ultra D as well:)

CPU VID Startup Value = The amount of volts the board will put through the chip at startup

CPU Vid Control = The VCore
CPU VID Special Control = Allows you to change the VCore by a certain percentage. Say you put the VCore at 1.3 and the Special Control at 110%, would give you 1.43V.

LDT Voltage Control = The HTT voltage (i leave that on 1.2)
Chipset Voltage Control = Yeh spot on, the NF4 chipset. (I set it to 1.5)
DRAM Voltage Control = The RAM voltage... depends on what RAM you use, can fiddle with this as well to see if it affects the RAM stability.

Make use of memtest in the genie bios if you're overclocking your RAM by any amount. If it comes up with errors then clock it back a bit. But as you're running on a divider atm and keeping the memory around 200MHz that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

As for your gfx, gfx cards can take a fair bit more heat than CPUs... Mine idles around 35C and gets up to about 60C under load.
 
Photos of my BIOS:

streeta-bios1.jpg

streeta-bios2.jpg
 
Oh that's magic. Thanks very much for the pictures. I actually dug around the net last night and came accross this guide which you pretty much back up with the above post. This gives a newbie like me quite a bit more confidence going into a project like this.

So my usual procedure has been to step FSB up by 5, adjust my divider (if necessary) then reboot and Run 3DMark05 until it can't complete. Then I've notched my FSB back by 5. Is 3DMark a good starter check for testing your overclock results or should I go straight into Prime95 and let it run a full blend test first? My thinking behind this is that the 3DMark05 test runs for about 9 minutes compared to Prime95's 1hour 9minutes, so 3DMark might give a better preliminary 'feel' for things.

Now for the questions. Always, so many questions: :)

CPU VID Startup Value - There's obviously a specific reason why you'd want to have control over this. What exactly is the reason for it? Best just to leave at default, considering my newbieness?

CPU VID Special Control - I assume this is the domain of the boys lucky to have water cooling et al?

Is there a way to calculate the optimum ratio between a chipset and RAM? For instance, like I said previously, I'm running my FSB at 235mhz (x10mult) and my RAM's on a 5:6 ratio, bringing it to 195.83mhz. Now, if I change this ratio to 9:10 then the RAM runs at 211.5 and the preliminary trial of running 3DMark05 seems to give it a decent score. However, I know that running memtest or Prime95 might be able to give a clearer indication of how my RAM will perform at that clock, but I'd just like to know if there's a golden arithmetic rule of thumb that would allow me to check the numbers and have a better idea in advance of how they'll test. I'm quite happy to go with trial and error but I'd much rather have grasp of what implications might result from certain ratios and numbers.

Finally, and I know I seem to be going on about this one. As you know, my multiplier is set to 10. What's to stop me from moving this way down to 4.5 to let me get the FSB right up? Many of the online guides seem to contradict each other, some saying that the multiplier should be set to 10, while others say to get it down to 4.0 (or lower if possible) so that we can squeeze every last drop out of the FSB. I know that you say that you prefer x10, but I'm curious from a simply academic point of view as to what the difference actually is. Why do you choose to go with x10 and not x4.0?

Overclocking a video card. Would you know a decent guide for doing that? I already have RivaTuner installed and I've seen where I can start fiddling with the clock speeds and such. Again, I just wanna pre-educate myself with as much information as possible before starting.

One last (possibly the dumbest) question. The Ultra-D doesn't actually have a setting in the BIOS that locks the FSB to the PCI-E clock, does it? I've seen the setting that lets you clock the PCI-E slot in steps. That essentially means that the PCI-E slot isn't locked to the FSB by default, doesn't it?

Edited to reflect some earlier points mentioned in the thread.
 
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When I overclock I tend to run Prime for about 20mins, if it crashes during that time, I'll clock it back a bit. When I find that Prime doesn't crash, I'll carry on using my PC, play some CS etc then leave it Priming over night.

I think the startup value is there just to provide a bit more juice while booting, some CPUs might not like booting when overclocked and cold unless they have a bit more volts going through them. Thats my thinking on it anyway.

I've never bothered with the special control personally, I suppose like you said its more for people with better cooling... allows you to get higher volts on the CPU.

There isn't really a set way of working out the optimum ratio. Obviously, the higher the better, but you need to memtest your RAM to make sure it can handle higher speeds. Its just trial and error, test it with looser timings and higher RAM speed or tighter timings and lower RAM speed, see which gives the best results for your system. I found with mine I could keep the RAM at 230MHz using a divider and use CAS2, or drop it to CAS2.5 and get rid of the divider and run the RAM at 250MHz. Did a few benchmarks on both and found it was best to drop the CAS to 2.5 and run it at 250... its all trial and error!

Useful program for showing mem frequency

As far as I know, there is nothing to stop you reducing the multiplier by loads... I don't see the point in reducing it too much though. If I were you I would stick with 9 or 10... see which gives you the best stable overclock.

As for overclocking the video card, I'm not too sure on what programs to use for Nvidia cards, I've only owned ATI cards for a while now so wouldn't be much help.

On the Ultra D, the PCI-E frequency is set by the PCI eXpress Frequency part in the bios. I set mine to 105MHz as I read some places that this was better for ATI cards, not too sure why though.
 
Well, I've managed to get 245mhz FSB (x10) with my RAM on a divider of 5:6 and a Vcore of 1.450V. This is based on running 3DMark05 and doing a prime95 torture test for 20 mins. I can get a wee bit more performance if I take the VCore up a bit, but then Prime and 3DMark start to show errors and my system starts to get quite unpredictable. So to this end, I reckon I've hit the ceiling in terms of how much I'm willing to push everything and what results I'm seeing. With my current RAM at least.

I think just out of interest, I'll start it all again at some point over the weekend but this time on a Multiplier of x9 just to see what I can get out of it. On the above set of results, I get a 3DMark05 score of 7045 which is ~2000 Marks more than what I started with on the ASUS motherboard unclocked.

Once again, thanks very much for your patience and time. I've always been a bit of a tinkerer and I've no idea how overclocking's managed to pass me by until now.
 
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