Newbie Web Designer - 33 & starting from scratch - Need Advice

[mug2k]

Newbie Web Developer - 33 & starting from scratch - Need Advice

Hi

I thought I'd try my hand at learning web design and picked up a few cheap courses at Udemy (I didn't pay full price) :-

HTML & CSS - https://www.udemy.com/build-website-scratch/
PSD to HTML/CSS - https://www.udemy.com/build-beautiful-html5-website/
Bootstrap course - https://www.udemy.com/code-responsive-website-twitter-bootstrap/

I'm at the very beginning and learning the basics of HTML and CSS and am very much enjoying what I'm learning so far, the courses above are only just starting points and I'll of course be looking to learn much more. I do worry about the creative aspect because I'm not artistic in the slightest.

I've been selling on eBay for the last 10 years and importing things from China but have only ever earned enough to just get by. Now it's harder than ever to make a living selling there because the competition is vast and diverse (sellers from China making pennies profit). I haven't really got any decent job skills to speak of because I spent so long doing the eBay thing. I'm hoping once I've learnt a fair amount I might be able to get a job somewhere and start at the bottom or maybe some basic freelance work. Being 33 I need to get out of my parents house at some point.

Based on all I've said above I have a few questions :-

1. What would you recommend me to start learning after I've finished the Udemy courses above ?

2. As I alluded to above I'm not very artsy, do you think good design and principles are something that can be learnt if you are artistically challenged ?

3. Have any of you guys started this fairly late in life like me and managed to get a career out of it ?

I'll take any advice I can get my hands on at this point, so please add anything that might be useful or be as harsh as you want.



Thanks for reading,
Marcus

 

[mug2k]

If you're not great at the creative side then it sounds like you should be looking at web developing, instead of designing. This isn't the end of the world as the courses you've linked to are all about development anyway.

To answer your questions:

1. If you want to earn a living in Web dev you NEED to know a server-side language. PHP or C# being the most popular by far. You'll need to have a good understanding of their core principles and also database design and maintenance. MySQL or MSSQL for those language respectively.

2. If you're not really a natural designer, don't even bother. Just make sure you know how to use photoshop to slice a design into HTML/CSS/JS and then turn that template into a functioning site with PHP/ASP.Net/Whatever else

I can't really help with 3. as I started at 15

I'm planning to try and learn a server-side language after I've learnt a decent amount of HTML/CSS/JS. I've seen quite a few courses and books that teach MySQL and PHP together so that'll probably be my best bet.

The 2nd course I linked is a PSD to HTML so it seems I purchased the right course

Echo the above. If you don't have design flair, don't bother trying. Stick to development. Find a good designer and team up, when you get to the point where you need one.

Don't worry about starting late, you'll be able to get a grip on basic code in 6 months. This will get you to a point where you'll be able to work out how to do most things.

I didn't know a jot of HTML last March, started learning April and now 10 months later, I have a healthy client list, a number of websites and am very very happy with life.

If you've got the talent to develop, then you'll be fine.

That's great to hear your doing so well after just 10 months, what did you use to learn so quickly ?. Also are you freelance or working for a company ?

While this is generally true, it's definitely not something set in stone.
Good front end developers are in high demand these days and can be paid quite well. (I know for a fact that I'm paid more than most of the back end devs at my 50+ employee agency)

Just out of interest how much do you get paid and how much experience do you have ?

 

[mug2k]

Completely agree that you need to be clear on the difference between web designer and developer (and the subdivisions thereof) before you go any further - this is really important for you to understand what you're getting into, and what you want to do with your new skills!

A web designer will be skilled in graphical and/or functional design (ideally both), and will likely have knowledge, experience and/or training with buzzwords including accessibility, usability and user experience. (All meaning roughly the same thing - that you know how to design a site that's functional as well as shiny.) A web designer needs to know enough about how web technology works that they can design a good site, but doesn't technically need to be able to write a single line of HTML, CSS, Javascript, or anything else.

A web developer, on the other hand, will generally be front-end (referring to code affecting the layout and operation of the page from a user's perspective) or back-end (referring to server-side code, possibly databases, the stuff the user never sees). Front-end focus is HTML, CSS, Javascript, and libraries thereof. Back-end focus is server-side languages; Java, PHP, ASP.NET, etc. A good all-round developer will be able to work both front- and back-end, but as others have commented, it's quite possible to specialise in either. A developer doesn't need to have a lick of graphical design talent, though like the designer it's extremely useful that they have at least some understanding of the principles.

Now, of course, there's no technical reason why you can't be all of the above, assuming you have the aptitude. It's not particularly common for one person to act as a one-stop shop from graphical design all the way to back-end including database development, but it's certainly common enough for designers to do some front-end coding, or generalist developers to cover front-end and back-end with a bit of basic design thrown in (such as creating basic layouts with a framework such as Bootstrap, for example...)

I agree with the others that if you're "not artistic in the slightest" then jumping straight into web design probably isn't going to work, and the courses you've identified put you squarely in the front-end developer camp anyway. BUT, it's important to think about what you actually want to do for work. Are you looking for permanent work, for example starting off as a junior developer somewhere? Or are you hoping to pick up some freelance contracts? Do you know what the job market for web professionals (whatever discipline) is like in your area, permanent, contract and/or freelance?

Regarding learning server side languages... this really depends on what you want to do! It would certainly be useful for you to understand the basics (as with design and development above, knowing a little about everything will enable you to produce a better, more rounded product no matter where you specialise), but - and I really don't know how to put this differently - there are a lot of people out there who know enough to think they can develop, but not enough to actually do it properly. Don't be one of them! If you start looking into server-side and database development and you like it, that's great - get stuck in, get good and enjoy it - but if you'd prefer to stick to front-end, that's fine. In that case you'll have more time to spend improving your front-end skills and will become all the more employable for it!

I'm going forum-blind staring at this reply window now so that'll do. Hope it helped. If not, just ignore me!

And good luck

My title shows much little I know about the subjects lol, since making the thread I've been reading some stuff here and there and realised the difference between designer and developer. I think the developer route is definitely the way to go for me and see how I go artistically when I make a few sites. I think I have an eye for what looks nice and there is plenty of inspiration to take from the millions of sites that exist.

I guess that will be a work in progress if I ever learn the aptitude to make nice sites but I'll concentrate on the front-end languages/markups to begin with and if that goes well I'll have a go at the server side stuff.

I'll try and gain a good grounding in HTML & CSS before jumping to the next thing. Too much too soon would probably burn me out and demotivate me in the process.

Thanks for the reply and I think I better edit the title now

Best way to learn after those courses is to build something, anything you like. Just the thought of making something, facing a brick wall, figuring it out and fixing it. Its an amazing rush and well keep you going. Compared to following some guide online.

After you make your first site, go back and improve it, maybe make your code more modular and reusable, improve on the MVC aspect. Make your code neater, pick up some testing experience while your in there.

If you want to focus more on the frontend I would still recommend you have a good understand of the database and server side language e.g. php. This puts you at a great advantage. Frontend development is also exploding, everyone wants a beautiful responsive site these days. Javascript is going crazy, frameworks like AngularJS and backbone JS are really pushing it forward, CSS is becoming a much better langauge with SASS and Less and HTML5 is getting pretty good now and you can do quiet a lot with simple mark up.

Picking up something like bootstrap is really wise, but I doubt you would need a course for that, the documentation covers everything and the internet has so much info on bootstrap today. There are also some other decent CSS frameworks that you should take a look at, such as foundation.

This not only teaches you everything (Full stack is a big deal these days) you have a awesome project to show off.

For getting jobs, I have a lot of friends that started web developing in their Mid 20s - 30s, all they really did was learn. One great example was a friend of mine, he worked at a radio station and did almost nothing all day. So he decided to read a book on html, then he read some more books. He did a bit of freelance work and some side projects and after that landed a job. Today which is 6 years on he is heading up a team and is one of the best developers I know.

Your still relatively young career wise, and although I don't have masses of experience being 23 I think if your passionate about it finding a job and building a career will be the easiest part.

Just to make things easier on your self when you do decide to find a job have a nice site to show off as an example, be up front and tell them that you might not have excellent experience and so on but your passionate and you have put in the work. I'm 100% sure a lot of amazing companies well response well.

As soon I think I have a handle on HTML & CSS I'll be diving straight in and start making a website. My plan is to buy a domain that hosts a few mini sites based things that interest me and maybe hobbies (I have plenty of time to decide what I'm going to put there). Then I hope to come back to those sites and improve as I learn more and it could act as my CV/portfolio if I go for jobs or get some freelance work.

I like the look of Foundation and developers seem to favour it over bootstrap reading (I'll still do the bootstrap course I paid for though). On a personal level I'm loving these new responsive sites that resize to be perfectly usable on mobile devices, it was genius whoever thought of that first.

From my research there are quite a few decent places free and paid (Treehouse, Codeacademy, Tutsplus, Codeschool) that I can learn from and will be looking into them more after I've completed the courses in the OP. Also there is literally thousands of tutorials on web on a multitude of subjects so the material for learning defo not in short supply.

Your friend sounds like he found his calling and has landed on his feet big time. I hope your right about finding a job being the easiest part as that's my main worry to be honest. I've only ever done the eBay thing and a few short jobs so employment is not a fruitful area for me.

Cheers for the reply.

 

[mug2k]

I came across Team Treehouse, fantastic learning resource. I think though, I have the sort of logical mathematical brain that suits code though, so I found it all quite easy.

Languages I know are HTML, CSS, jQuery, PHP, mySQL and I've used it all to become a WordPress front and back end developer. Can't design for squat. I tell my designers what I want a page to look like, where I want stuff, how I want it to look and they turn my vision into reality.

Which answers the other question, I work for myself. I have a few people working for me but we're all technically, freelancers.

To expand on the point about either design or dev, you need to look at the left and right side of the brain. One is stronger than the other typically. Left side is creative, right side is cognitive(I think). Either way, design suits one side better and dev the other so been good at both is rare.

I've signed up at Treehouse and have a whopping 250 points so far. From the little I've done I like it, the quizzes and coding tests are a nice touch. I've chose the web design track to start with so I can learn the utter basics and maybe some design principles along the way.

I guess through the learning process and making a few mini-sites along the way I'll find which part of my brain is stronger, I think it will be the right side but we'll see.

Do you have any examples of your work?

 

[mug2k]

Thanks for the insight macmodder, hopefully I'll learn some basic design skills along the way.

I have one more question, I'm looking to buy a domain that'll act as a portfolio. Is it a good idea for the domain name to be my full name or maybe just initials and surname ? Also is there any advantage in going for a .com over a co.uk?

 

[mug2k]

Just thought I'd pop back in here and let you know what I've been up to. After creating this thread I got some work unrelated to dev and design and finished the contract in July and done nothing of merit in terms of learning in that whole period.

I started up again learning some HTML/CSS and began to build the odd site (http://i.imgur.com/IbAs3YW.jpg) and realised my design skills were horrible and thought I better try and learn a bit about design before I get back to the coding side. So I've spent the last 6 months learning about design and have really enjoyed it but realise it is a huge topic and I still have so much to learn. I have a profile on Dribbble (https://dribbble.com/mshanda) and have been contacted by a startup in Madrid for a design job but they thought it was a bit early for me and I'm a little too inexperienced and I tend to agree. Also just last week a sports media company (http://factorymedia.com) sent me an email about front-end developer job for £25K-30K, they liked my designs but I don't have the development skills so that was a non starter too.

For 6 months ish of learning I'm pretty happy with my progress and seem to be at least half decent because 2 companies have contacted me. Now it's time to learn some of the front-end skills so I can become more employable and also be able to build the designs I create. I'll still keep learning the design side of things as I'm far from a pro and it's something I really enjoy doing and learning about. I've had the odd design job here and there but not as much as I'd like so I'm hoping the year ahead will be better in terms of earning and being able to build and design could only improve my chances going forward.

Thanks for reading,
Marcus

 

[mug2k]

Thanks for the update an good luck getting your dream job

I got some freelance work for this week, so that's a start

Could you send me a Dribble invite please!

I haven't been given any yet, sorry.

 

[mug2k]

Just had a read through this thread mug2k and I've got to say it's lovely to read how well you've been doing! As someone who is looking to get in to web design it's quite inspirational

Can I just ask what program have you been using to design the websites?

Hi Mate, it's called Sketch (Mac only) and it's really a dream to work with compared with Photoshop, once you know your way around and some short-cuts it can be really fast and efficient.

http://bohemiancoding.com/sketch/

Great thread. Wish you all the best for the future, hard work does pay off, must be a nice confidence boost to have people contacting you about jobs.

It's a really nice feeling when you start to get noticed, I enjoy designing so this is basically my dream work/job. A year ago I had absolutely no job prospects or future so I'm in a great place now mentally.

 

[mug2k]

Thanks mate! Can I just ask what resources did you use, or which courses did you look at? Some of your designs look epic!

Wow what a question, it's so much that I'd never be able to remember it all.

The book that started me off was called "The Non-designers Design Book" and it's available at fine bookstores everywhere

Here's a nice Sketch playlist on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLnpHn493BHE6UIsdKYlS5zu-ZYvx22CS

Here is a nice place to learn some of the basics of design and useful tips and tricks. If you scroll to the bottom it's separated into categories.
https://designschool.canva.com/

I read the design/graphic-design and web design subreddits too.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Design/
http://www.reddit.com/r/graphic_design/
http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/

Plenty to be getting on with

 

[mug2k]

Sweet mate! Thank you very much. There's so much out there, it's always nice to see what someone else has done I'm currently doing a lot of Marketing where I currently work and in my spare time I'm looking to delve more in to Design and what not!

Well that could end up being a killer combination if you get good at design. You'll have connections in the marketing world and also know how to market yourself.

Good luck

 

[mug2k]

Came on here to share how I started but realised you're well on your way.

Got to say I saw the original mockup you produced and can't believe the improvement, some great designs on your Dribble page mate, well done!

I'm **** at design so I concentrate on development, if you're going the freelance route, look at WordPress development, there's a ton of work.

Let's hear you story anyway

With regard to WordPress development, could you elaborate a little on what kind of work?

 

[mug2k]

I'm the same Noxia, I sucked at programming on my IT course when I was 18, but now it's something I find a lot easier to pick up, and a lot more interesting.

I just wish I had started in web development way back when, when I had my initial interest in it, if only I knew how big it would be. But anyway, I'm here now.

My story is that I always used to mess around in Front Page back in the late nineties/early 2000's and make awful Geocities pages with a colour scheme that would give you a fit, sprinkled with marquee's everywhere and gifs.

I then didn't pay any moe attention to it and went off to work in sales at CPW, then onto a car dealership and then into aftersales at a telecoms company, during the time at the comms company I grew more and more interested again in web development (as I had lost all will to be in the cut throat/BS world of sales) and even undertook a project to redesign their website as it was awful, this never happened in the end because they just ran out of steam for the project. However just doing that gave me the impetus to get off my ass and go to college in the evenings to get something meaningful I could show to potential employers (a portfolio and some basic qualifications) in the process for trying to get a junior role in a web/design company, I fired off some CV's to a few places and never heard back from them. I then saw an advert for where I am at now as a junior, I had an interview, met the people (who oddly enough I had met when in my comms job to dicsuss improving their comms situation and saving them money) and got on really well with them and they offered me the job. I did all this when I was 32.

Now coming up for two years this June and I am loving my job and the varied work we carry out and the different projects we've done. Never did I think I'd be able to do some of the stuff we've done. I work with two great guys who really taught me a lot about design aspects etc, and it feels amazing to see things fall into place now. The last 6 months I feel my knowledge has grown immensley.

This is great and the fact you did it at 32 is icing on the cake. Being 34 I worry about my age but I feel a bit better now. If you ever start freelancing I'm sure you can leverage your background in sales to help you get clients, it could be a good combination. You get paid to do what you love I think it doesn't get any better than that

I started off in IT support (still do!) and a project came up to build a website for the company I worked for, and then another small project came about until I basically taught myself PHP / HTML / CSS etc while working. I then got the chance to redevelop the main company site and bring it back in house. Complicated, takes payments / direct debits / generates PDF's, all stuff I had never come across.

Read up on best practices and what to avoid so you don't screw up, and review your starting code at the end of the project and see how far you've come.

This gave me the skills I needed to start off on Elance and I started to pick up a few jobs here and there. This is where I started to mess around with WordPress and jumped in at the deep end with some projects.

I'm 12 months in doing Freelance and I'd say 95% of my work is on WordPress. I've got a few repeat clients that bring me in 90% of my income and they have projects lined up with me for the next 3 months.

I'm still working full time in IT support but hoping that in another 12 months I can go full time as a freelancer. I spend maybe 15 hours a week working at night and weekends.

Re: WordPress Development

This is anything from migrating a WP install to developing a new plugin or to fix an existing issue. Familiarise yourself with WP, build a plugin that you'd find useful (I built a twitter feed for my first one), look at successful themes code / plugin code and you'll get the hang of it if you've got a good understanding of PHP. Main point - Follow the WP coding standards!

I haven't used Elance for 4 months now and my income is going up and up. Do the **** little jobs where you make next to nothing to get yourself a portfolio of projects you've finished.

My first job was to build someone a simple custom WordPress theme (one page only). They gave me a site they liked, and said I want that as a WordPress theme. I finished the job and got paid $50 ... before the Elance cut. But I had a theme I'd developed, and an item in my portfolio and more knowledge than I had going into the project.

Good luck mate, it's tough but I'm starting to see the rewards of working hard at it! Something that used to take me 4 hours, takes me 30 minutes now.

There is so much to learn on the dev side it's utterly overwhelming, I'm still learning CSS at the moment then I'll move onto Sass to make my workflow more efficient. I'll get to WordPress at some point but as you've pointed out above I'll have to learn some PHP first.

I just got a new design job via Elance for $20/hr which is not bad, but most of the work there seems like bottom of the barrel and opportunist clients trying to get websites etc for peanuts. This past week I've done pretty well in terms of work and have the following lined up.

£7.50/hr = Ongoing design work but I'll knock this on the head soon as the money is pretty bad.
£12.50/hr = Ongoing work via Elance.
£15/hr = 8 hour project for a design agency in Detroit.
£15/hr = 10 hour project.
£15/hr = 15 hour project.

I'm pretty happy with how it's going so far, I might make a decent amount of money for once in my life as long as I keep improving, add new clients and up my rates when I deserve it.

Good to hear your doing well with the freelancing, I just wondered how much you charge for a website or what the going rate is? I've seen people offer web design on Gumtree for peanuts but I'm guessing that's just cheap crap.

 

[mug2k]

Small update here, I had a email last week from a company in California for a junior designer role that paid $75k and would they would relocate me to the States. I done a little design challenge and apparently did well but they decided they needed a senior designer. Oh well, was a nice confident boost and I built on that design challenge and popped it on my portfolio (It's the latest one).

https://dribbble.com/mshanda

I should have my portfolio website built in the next week or two, so hopefully it'll help me land some new clients.

How's it going for you guys, anybody else here freelancing?

 

[mug2k]

End of the year update:-

I now have my own portfolio site, it needs updating because I've finished 2 web site designs and I'm putting the finishing touches to 2 mobile apps. I'd like to think it has helped in landing a few clients and I believe I come across more professional by having it.

Financially I've done pretty well this year (for me anyway) and managed clear my debts and have close to 5 figures in the bank.

I plan to do some travelling next year while working remotely. Hopefully in the next year or two I'll have a decent amount saved so I can get a place of my own. Right now I want to carry on learning more and more about design and generally improve in all area's including the business side of things such as sales and marketing myself.

I recently got back in contact with senior designer based in Canada and he said I should be charging $50-$60 an hour, I was quite amazed at those figure as I charge half that. If I could get 10 hours a week at $60/hour that would be pretty sweet. Anyway I think I'll be raising my rates a tad in the new year and see how it goes.

I still haven't learnt any coding, I did purchase a course about iOS development so I may dive into that at some point but as of now I really enjoy UI design and don't see the need to move in another direction just yet.

http://www.marcushanda.com
https://dribbble.com/mshanda

 

[mug2k]

Just read through this, lovely! I laughed at the original design you did for the football page when you said you couldn't design, and compared to what you do now, just 11 months later, great job. I'm 29 and I'm hoping to do something similar, I posted a thread on here actually with my first attempt. Is there anything in particular you real really found useful in your learning to kick start it off where everything suddenly just clicked? I'm more into design, over development.

The book called 'The Non-designers Design Book', I read an old version and got it for a couple of quid but there is a new one out if your willing to splash out. It's teaches you about CRAP which is contrast, repetition, alignment and proximity which will put you on the path of creating nice clean designs.

After that I just went mental on graphic design video tutorials from places like Lynda, Tutsplus and Treehouse. I only watched those for about 2 months because having 3 subscriptions is damn expensive. You can find tons of information via articles and youtube videos if you willing to spend the time searching.

 

[mug2k]

https://developers.google.com/speed/pagespeed/insights/?url=http://www.marcushanda.com&tab=mobile

Might be something you want to take a look at.

Thanks, I'll see if my developer can do anything about that!

 

[mug2k]

Very useful, cheers mate. I'll probably buy that, also asked for another book for Christmas called "Don't make me think", both of those should help massively.

That's really good book or so I've heard especially for the user experience side of things. With those 2 books you'll be off to a great start. Do you know what app your going to use to design? If you have a Mac I highly recommend Sketch if not illustrator is also good and better suited to UI design than Photoshop!

 

[mug2k]

I put together a few albums on Imgur so I can keep tracking of my progress, some of the 2014 designs are truly horrible and I though they looked pretty decent at the time. I think I've always had an eye for what looked good and I'd like to think my skills are catching up with my taste. Hopefully my stuff in 2016 will be a damn site better than this years efforts!

Arranged by oldest first
2014 - http://imgur.com/a/GqTQq
2015 January to June - http://imgur.com/a/qqJ5J
2015 July to December - http://imgur.com/a/GcZSa

 

[mug2k]

Did you design the Zurb website? That's a really good website dude

I designed it but didn't build it, this guy did https://www.jamesstone.com, I've also redesigned that site too but he hasn't got round to building it yet.

Great work mate really impressed, i like the way you thought you were not much of a designer and now look at you a truly great inspiration for sure well done.

I feel very much the same in that i feel i am not very creative although i really wish i could be. Seeing how you thought the same and seeing your designs now i think i make take a similar route. I have an ok grasp of html and css, im looking at jquery and php but may put it on hold. Watching some sketch app tutorials at the mo and going to go from there i think.

Where did you find your design spark from in the end, was there one part of your learning where it just clicked?

Thanks, sometimes I think I haven't improved much but looking at the designs on imgur it's pretty obvious I have.

I've come realise that talent is not really that important for UI design (not sure about other area's of design). Time, hardwork and a love for the craft is more than enough to put you on the path to good things. I started with no talent for this so literally started at zero and I think I've done ok and you can too.

I think it clicked for me when I realised it was ok to look for inspiration instead trying to design only with my own skills. This is the book that gave me a kick up the arse and license to seek inspiration.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Steal-Like-Artist-Austin-Kleon/dp/0761169253

Picasso
"Good artists copy, great artists steal."

 

[mug2k]

Was trying to send you a trust message mug2k but doesn't look like you have it setup. Just wanted to ask you a few things if thats ok?

I've just set that up!