Noise and Interference Issue

[Ulti-Resis]

Hey all, I'm in need of some help to solve a big problem here...

I've got a noise/interference problem on the mobo onboard sound outputs. I've tried going from both front and rear sockets using a 3.5mm to RCA cable going to a stereo Hifi amp, high end monitor headphones direct to the PC sockets and desktop multimedia speakers. As well as this I tried going out to my Avid MBox Pro firewire recording interface RCA inputs and I have this awful high pitched and low pitched (simultaneous) constant tone that changes when I move the mouse, open a window or program, game etc and if there is any HDD or SSD activity it stutters in time with the drives accessing data.

I've tried short cables, long cables, plugging into a high end multi socket surge protector, direct into the wall socket etc. I've also made sure everything is plugged into the same socket to make sure it is not a ground loop caused by plugging into different power sockets. I've even tried grounding the RCA cables to the chassis of the PC, the Hifi amp and I can't get rid of the problem.

If I set the MBox Pro as the default playback device in Windows sound settings and have the sound go through firewire to that and out of my studio monitors (which are connected using Balanced XLR cables then I don't have any noise issues. I cannot leave it set that way though, the MBox cannot function correctly for Pro-Tools recording when set as the default playback device, I just did this as a test to see if I get the noise this way.

I think it is interference coming from one or more components in the PC. It is so bad that I can't put up with it but I don't know how to fix the problem.

I've read online about other people having this same problem but most don't come to any conclusion or solution. Some solved it by grounding the RCA cables to the chassis of their amplifier. Others did something dangerous using what is known as a ground loop adapter or cheat plug, whereby it removes the earth cable from the power supply plug so they effectively have no earth. Some I read actually bought PCI, PCI-e or Firewire sound cards and this got rid of their problem. I can't do this as I have no accessible slots on the motherboard due to the GPU's covering the remaining available slots. One guy talked about ground lifting his speakers but didn't explain in detail.

I'm lost on this one and other than yourselves and OCUK the only other option is to contact the component manufacturers and see what they might suggest. It is likely that they will just blame it on other components in the PC but won't obviously be able to tell me which components are causing it and certainly won't admit that their component is known to cause this.

I really hope someone can help with this one as it really is a dealbreaker because it is so bad I cannot live with it like this, especially on a brand new £3000 PC!

The PC has in it:

ASUS Rampage IV Black Edition
Intel i7 4930k
2 Inno3d GTX 780 6GB SLI
EVGA SuperNova 1000w G2 Gold
32GB Kingston HyperX Beast PC3-17100C11 2133MHz
Crucial M550 256GB SSD
2 x 1TB Western Digital Caviar Black
2 Pioneer BluRay Drives
Custom Watercooled Loop using and XSPC X2O 750 Dual Bayres/Pump V4
NZXT Phantom Enthusiast Case
3 x 120mm Bitfenix Spectre Pro Red LED
1 x 140mm Bitfenix Spectre Pro Red LED
2 x 120mm Bitfenix Spectre Red LED

Thanks for any and all assistance.

 

[Ninja Pirate]

This seems to be an issue with some onboard audio solutions.

Don't bother with a ground loop isolator, it wouldn't resolve the issue here since you are hearing the noise by directly plugging your headphones into the rear jack (at least I think that's what you've done).

Try using the optical out on your motherboard to a compatible receiver or DAC (if you have one). In theory the optical port should isolate the noise and any remaining noise issues will most likely be due to a ground loop (which is fixable either through connecting your audio equipment to a separate power socket from your computer gear, or through ground loop isolators).

If you don't already have a receiver or DAC of some kind you may want to look into a cheap external DAC (FiiO, Asus, Creative, etc).

Edit: Nvm, looks like you already have a pretty high end external unit. Is there no way to connect the Mbox Pro to your PC via USB or optical?

 

[Ulti-Resis]

Yes it does seem very common but the solutions are usually not that easy to come by.

I have plugged headphones directly into both the front and rear jacks and got the noise from both.

It did cross my mind about using the optical out but I would need a 10 metre cable to reach the stereo amp and the amp does not have an optical input so I would have to use a DAC. The Stereo system is JVC seperates which were designed and sold as a complete system and connect together using proprietary ribbon connectors.

The MBox Pro doesn't have USB or optical either, it has Coaxial SPDIF, balanced XLR, unbalanced 1/4 TRS and RCA. You can see the front and rear panels of the MBox here:

http://akmedia.digidesign.com/support/docs/Mbox_Pro_User_Guide_80365.pdf

Even if I can get it working through the MBox so that the sound comes from the Monitors it still doesn't change the fact that I have been sold a badly designed/shielded or faulty motherboard (or maybe a badly built PC that has not been properly grounded?) and I still won't be able to use the headphone jacks on the PC. I'd have to use headphones plugged into the MBox. If I happen to have a problem with the MBox or decide to use a different interface in future that doesn't have the necessary inputs, I'd be knackered. I know this is being picky and maybe a little OTT but this is supposed to be the mutz nutz of a mobo and PC so it should be perfect in every way and I shouldn't have to use other £700 professional recording interfaces to make it work as it should.

OCUK seem to think it's the motherboard and they would normally fit a new board or put in a sound card to solve this. I can't put in a sound card as there are no available slots due to the GPU's blocking all slots bar one and that slot is taken up with a PCI-e firewire card to connect the MBox to. Personally I don't think a new motherboard is going to make any difference, I would bet that I'd have exactly the same problem with the new one.

I'll see what OCUK are going to do about it and maybe consider getting a DAC and 10m optical cable (can you even get 10m optical and would the laser signal travel that far and still be strong enough to work?).

 

[rids57]

How about an external USB soundcard like the Xonar U7 or Creative X-Fi?

 

[TwsT]

+1 on the u7 great bit of kit

 

[Ninja Pirate]

A cheap option may be to try an optical to coax converter (not exactly sure if it will work) for your Mbox (which for the price I would imagine is a better DAC than the U7 or XFi).

 

[Ulti-Resis]

That may be a solution but it doesn't really fix the bad design of the motherboard.

How about OCUK GIVE me it free, plus some money back in compensation? I have had nothing but trouble from the day I bought this custom built system and still have several ongoing issues to deal with. I never wanted to give bad rep about OCUK on here but to be honest I am really starting to get annoyed about everything now.

I'm thinking maybe that idea would work Ninja Pirate but I'll have to read up on the SPDIF connection on the MBox in more detail first as I read something earlier that talks about it being used as a clock device input. I'm not sure at this point if it is a standard SPDIF coaxial input and I've only just bought it so I'm still learning Pro-Tools and the MBox.

I just did some reading and a 10 metre optical cable would work OK so, I could possibly go optical to DAC then a short RCA with ground wires or through a ground loop isolator (if needed) to the Hifi system. Means having to spend another wad of cash on more kit I shouldn't have to though, so I am reluctant to do any of it.

I've registered with ASUS as well so I'll contact them and ask their opinion as well.

 

[rids57]

what slots are your graphics cards in?

If it's 1 & 3 then there's a PCIe x1 slot available above the third slot.
If it's 1 & 2 then you could fit on in the fourth PCIe x16 slot.

 

[Ulti-Resis]

I have a PCI-e firewire card in the only accessible slot between the GPU's which are in slots 1 & 3. I have to have the firewire for the MBox Pro to plug in. All other slots are blocked.

 

[rids57]

oh right, I was assuming the mobo had firewire (apparently it doesn't)

As this was a custom built system I'd be arranging for OcUK to have it picked up because it's not fit for purpose in it's current state. You said the noise stuttered when accessing the drives, which sounds a bit strange to me and I'd be thinking "faulty motherboard".

The inside of a PC case is a very noisy place electronically speaking and the first thing I'd do would be to disconnect the front panel audio as the cable often acts as an antenna for EM interference. Probably the most common cause of EM interference is the graphics card, or cards in your case but as the noise is caused when moving the mouse it doesn't appear tied to GPU load. Nope, it's most likely a grounding problem and the most likely cure is a new motherboard followed by comprehensive testing.

 

[Ulti-Resis]

Yes, I'd agree with you there rids57. The noise is constant i.e. there all the time, but moving the mouse, HDD, SSD activity etc makes it get louder, whine and stutter etc. Some of it may be coming from the GPU's, I can't say with certainty. If I have music or game sound loud enough, that is, constant sound, I can kind of drown out the noise but as soon as I get any quiet parts in the sound the noise is awful. Admittedly, it doesn't help that I am an audiophile and musician as well. I think it would be a good idea to custom make a grounding harness to go to the Mobo, PSU, case etc. It does seem a bit odd that the mobo doesn't have firewire, it has an abundance of everything else. I should have maybe thought about this when I decided on the mobo but then I could simply fit a card as necessary. It didn't cross my mind at the time about the MBox being a firewire device and I wrongly assumed that a mobo of that calibre would have everything, including a firewire.

The entire build from day 1 was frankly terrible. I don't know who built it over at OCUK but I have basically had to fix a hell of a lot myself (some still on-going) and actually finish off or re-do parts of the build myself due to shoddy workmanship, missing or faulty parts, things not done that should have been, cable management so bad that the side panel of the case didn't fit properly and was bulging out and buckled due to the cable bundles being way too big. Even a mistake made where I asked for the EVGA SuperNova 1000 P2 Platinum PSU when arranging the order and ended up with the P2 Gold instead. I accepted this as there is only 2% difference in efficiency between them and not worth the hassle to change it. Incorrect fans were supplied but not fitted, rad fans fitted drawing air into the case instead of exhausting and they should have been 4 pin PWM so that the digital ROG controller could be used to control them but instead they fitted 3pin non-PWM. All the fan LED's should have been connected to the switch on the back of the case so the LED's could be turned off without affecting the fans and this wasn't done. The case fan controller switch (or possibly cable) going to the case side fans is faulty and is causing the side fans to constantly speed up and slow down, speed up, slow down and the LED's on those two fans dim and go bright as it does this, as well as the blue light on that particular fan switch goes on and off, on and off. I also bought the windowed side panel for the NZXT Phantom and the side fans should have been fitted to this and this fitted to the case and sound dampened, none of this was done. They even sent me a code card for free games that went out of date back in 2013 and I phoned up to get a new code, and the first one the guy gave over the phone had already been used. He then sent me another code by email which did work fine and actually gave me 4 games instead of the original 3 so they redeemed themselves there. The list goes on...

I also specifically stated from the off and several times after, that I wanted all the original parts, retail packaging, manuals, disks etc so that if I decided to upgrade and sell parts off in future, I would have all that stuff to go with them. Some were thrown away or re-used in other systems but either way, I didn't get all of them and OCUK had to send out replacements for what they could.

I have to say that OCUK have, to date, sent me all the parts out for free to fix things and are making every effort to help me correct all the issues but it seems to me a total lack of care and attention to detail given the amount of money I spent with them.

I feel I have been more than fair and flexible in this situation. I have bit my tongue on saying too much about it publically and been working with one of the staff members to get everything sorted. I avoided posting any public negativity on the forum as much as possible but now I have got to this point, I'm afraid I am unhappy and I can't just keep fixing things over and over myself or having to spend money to mask issues that should not be there in the first place.

I can see that the rig is going to have to go back for a new motherboard and OCUK have already agreed to this but I have already stated for the record that I don't want any bodge jobs or masking the issues and I certainly don't want the guy who originally built it doing any work on it. It either works perfectly, as originally designed, without bodge up work or it is unacceptable and not fit for purpose IMO. I also wonder what happens if a new motherboard doesn't solve the problem?

My only hope now is that OCUK get everything fixed in lightning fast time and get a fully and properly functioning system to me without delay so I can get on and enjoy recording music and gaming etc. If they do this then they may just redeem my faith.

Sorry for the long rant but I feel I had to get it out there.

 

[ScottiB]

Hello UR,

I'm sorry to hear about your issues and I'm glad to hear that our tech guys are helping out, I have a very similar issue with my own personal build, it's extremely frustrating. I tracked it down to coil whine from one of my graphics cards and I bypassed it using an external USB DAC, in the process improving my overall audio quality massively.

However, with regards your comment about a

total lack of care and attention to detail.

Your problem is definitely far from common so I think it's unfair to make the claim that your audio issues are due to a lack of care. This issue would fall outside of our standard testing process.

As you can probably imagine, our testing processes are set up to look for graphical issues, network issues, faulty CPU, Memory, Hard Drive etc. When testing 20+ systems in the same room simultaneously, it's fair to say that testing audio quality would be extremely difficult.

Also, this was a completely custom build using component combinations that I would not consider tried and tested. We test our standard components to a lengthy extent to ensure that there are no strange compatibility issues. Products that don't meet our standards, at any point, don't make it into our systems. On this occasion, it seems that you weren't satisfied with our pre-configured systems and asked us to build something to your own specifications. That's not to say that custom systems are held to lower standards to normal systems, the opposite is usually true, but unfortunately unusual issues such as this are rarely spotted until the customer has the system in their possession.

Again, I'm sorry that you are experiencing such a strange and frustrating issue. Since I have some experience with this problem I will check it out personally. As for the quality of the original build I will look into it. We have a quality control process which involves a minimum of three different people, if the quality of the build was poor it should have been picked up on.

 

[Ulti-Resis]

Thanks ScottieB, When I said a "total lack of care and attention to detail" I was referring to all the other issues but not this particular issue with the sound. I realise that this sound problem could have occurred with any mobo or setup and could have a whole range of causes but just on top of everything else it's the straw that has broke the camel's back for me.

I understand what you are saying about me asking for a custom build and you not knowing if there might be compatibility issues V's your tried and tested pre-built systems. However all the components were bought from OCUK and if there were any doubts about compatibility then why did nobody in the chain from initial contact to sales or the builder communicate any of the potential problems, after all, I communicated with at least 4 or 5 people at OCUK about the considered build and they all said it was going to be an awesome system?

PC components these days, especially high end stuff are all designed and built to go together and there should rarely be any problems with compatibility except in the case of faulty parts, badly designed or manufactured parts, lack of shielding or bad system build quality such as cable routing, grounding etc. I know there are other factors such as ground loop issues and EMF, coil whine and the like that can happen and of course some of this is unpredictable. None of this would excuse the wrong items being sold to me and fitted to the machine than I actually asked for, items being sold to me that actually could not be fitted into the machine due to lack of slot space and having to be refunded or many of the other issues I have found with the build. I would also propose that if all these parts are potentially incompatible then why do you sell them all and advertise to custom build machines for people if you know that parts are potentially incompatible? Why do manufacturers make them and claim they are all compatible to certain criteria, standards and sizes etc if in fact they are not? I have also seen many systems built here on the forum and elsewhere using the parts in my system and no mention of any problems. All these parts are considered to be some of the best available and conform to particular sizes, standards and compatibilities with each other. I'm not trying to be arrogant, obnoxious or difficult here, I'm just stating and questioning the facts and logic.

I have been communicating in the customer service section of the forum with 'EvoAddict' regarding all the problems and slowly working through everything one by one to resolve and fix each.

The issues I still have to fix:

1. The inbuilt NZXT fan controller/cable issue for the side fans and the fans speeding up, down etc. Either a new cable (just for the side fans) or new fan controller is needed I believe.

2. The rad fans should be PWM 4 pin Red LED so they can be controlled using the ROG controller. They are currently Bitfenix Spectre red LED-Black with 3 pin connector. They need to be changed and I wanted them to be 120mm Bitfenix Spectre PRO PWM Red LED to match the rest of the fans and because they push more air. It is looking like Bitfenix don't do the PRO with PWM and Red LED though. Probably going to have to be (non-pro) Spectre PWM Red LED but you don't have any stock of those at the moment.

3. All the fan LED's should have been connected to the rear case switch so the LED's could be switched on and off without affecting the fans but this wasn't done as I had asked for. I was left to try to find a way to do it myself, which I haven't done yet. I don't know what can be done about this as it would need 6 2 pin LED connectors to one switch?


Other issues that have occurred:

The game Alan Wake claimed that my system is below the minimum spec for the game. The game ran fine with everything on full. Clearly my system is not below the spec for that game so I don't know what that was all about.

On boot up yesterday I got a boot failure and it restarted in to the bios. This has happened only once and I got the message that the "overclock failed". It hasn't happened before or since.

ROG CPUZ reports the RAM as PC3 10700 (667Mhz) but the RAM is in fact PC3 17100 (2133Mhz) and the bios is set in XMP profile #1 2133Mhz again not sure why this is?



I'll have to arrange to ship it back next week so that you guys can take a look at it. I guess I'll have to also send the original mobo box, packaging and spares back too just in case you end up replacing it. The original huge OCUK box it was shipped in has gone to recycling but I still have the NZXT retail box from the case.

I have also claimed and downloaded the Assassin's Creed Black Flag code that came with this mobo too so I'm not sure what you would do there if you replace the mobo with new?

Cheers

 

[Doogles]

Seems I totally misread the OP, sorry

 

[ScottiB]

if there were any doubts about compatibility then why did nobody in the chain from initial contact to sales or the builder communicate any of the potential problems

Had there been a known issue, something that we previously picked up in testing then it would have been. As you rightly say, these days, blatant compatibility issues between CPU, MB, RAM, VGA etc are very rare. However, we do find the occasional product which is prone to less obvious issues such as terrible cap whine and network failures, these are removed from our system specifications.

3. All the fan LED's should have been connected to the rear case switch so the LED's could be switched on and off without affecting the fans but this wasn't done as I had asked for.

I think you've realised for yourself that this is easier said than done because LED fan cables aren't common. Manufacturers all seem to have their own approach. If anyone can work it out though, "Evoaddict" can.

The game Alan Wake claimed that my system is below the minimum spec for the game. The game ran fine with everything on full. Clearly my system is not below the spec for that game so I don't know what that was all about.

Badly coded game that doesn't recognise your graphics card because it was released after the last game update. Quite common, you just have to ignore it.

I have also claimed and downloaded the Assassin's Creed Black Flag code that came with this mobo too so I'm not sure what you would do there if you replace the mobo with new?

Don't worry about it, when you get the system back I hope you enjoy the game, it's one of my favourites.

 

[Ulti-Resis]

Thanks for your understanding and response ScottiB.

I do have a plan in mind for getting the switch connected up to the LED's but it will require some messing about with soldering and customising of cables and connectors. I just haven't got as far as actually doing anything about it and would have preferred not to have had to do anything to the system but open the box and enjoy it. Originally I had planned to do the build myself and somehow I got talked into letting OCUK do it for me and at the time it worked for me because I was under serious time constraint. That however actually turned out as it has and saved me almost no time at all in the end.

Alan Wake coming up with that actually made me laugh. Below minimum spec my arse haha. I don't normally do PC gaming and always just stuck with Playstation 1/2/3/4 consoles and even Vectrex, Oreck, Sinclair Spectrum, Acorn Archimedes, Atari ST & 2600, Commodore 64 & Amiga, Sega Mega Drive, NES & SNES etc back in the good old days. Still have the speccy, mega drive and all the Playstations but my PS3 80GB just gave me the YLOD and needs reballing so I can at least get my data off it There are probably a lot of people on here who are too young to have had the pleasure of gazing upon such marvellous machines (which makes me sound old) LOL, but I'm only 36 myself so not exactly an old codger by any stretch.

I actually killed AC Black Flag on PS4 already but I'm looking forward to seeing how it looks and plays on PC, especially when I eventually get my Acer 4K G-sync monitor. I hope Acer get their act together on them sooner rather than later. I've followed the entire AC franchise from the beginning.

I've arranged with EvoAddict to have it collected on Monday so it should be back with you on Tuesday. Here's hoping it all gets sorted out easily and both OCUK and I can relax knowing it has all come good in the end!

Cheers,
Mick