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Nvidia Pascal Architecture Detailed Technical Analysis – Stacked DRAM and NV Link

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[Editorial] Before I begin, my humble warning that this post might get a little technical. This generation of graphic cards is not about brute power, but efficiency and intelligent design. To achieve the maximum throughput while maintaining a very small foot print. Basically, true progress; and its not just about adding more transistors on a die. Nvidia demoed two critical technologies on GTC this year, namely NV Link and Stacked DRAM aka ’3D Memory’. However they understandably failed to give a lot of technical details since the demo was for the general audience, but I will try to take care of that today, albeit slightly late.
NVIDIA Pascal GPU Chip Module

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Nvidia Pascal: Using CoW (Chip-on-Wafer) based 3D Memory to Achieve the Next Gen GPU

Lets begin with 3D Memory. Now most of you know what SoC (System-on-Chip) means, but now we have a slightly less used term which I will take the opportunity to explain. Basically the CoW (cue mundane bovine jokes) or Chip on Wafer design is a technique used to plant a single logic circuit directly over or under a stack of wafers. Basically the chips are stacked and Silicon punched through in vertical pillars called TSV (Through Silicon Vias) till the Control Die. In this case, it means that the DRAMs that are stacked will be controlled by a single logic circuit and henceforth referred to as a ‘Chip-on-Wafer’ design. In all probability the Nvidia 3D RAM will be using the JEDEC HBM standard, which funnily enough was developed by JEDEC and AMD. However the actual production will most likely be carried out by SK Hynix. Pascal’s Stacked DRAM Design is most probably going to come in 2 modules of configuration (since they mentioned the 1Tb/s mark):
Configuration 1: 2x Stack (512 Gb/s) + 1 (Control Die). This is called 2-Hi HBM.
Configuration 2: 4x Stack (1024 Gb/s) + 1 (Control Die) This is called 4-Hi HBM.
Nvidia might even bring a configuration standard in its Pascal Architecture between these 2 ‘traditional’ configs (3 Stacks) but that is unlikely. So here we have an interesting question. Green has promised us speeds up to 1 Terabits per Second. So there is more or less no question that the high end GPUs will ship with 4 + 1 layers of stack , however what about the middle and lower order? Will they also ship with the same layers of stack or a lesser configuration. If I were to make an educated speculation I would put my money on multiple configurations scaled across the spectrum of GPUs. As in the middle order to have 2 + 1 layers, while as the top order to have the 4 + 1 layers. Continuing the same speculation, HBM utilizes a low operating frequency and low power requirement. Therefore Nvidia’s Stacked DRAM will most probably operate at around 1.2V with frequency around 1Ghz. Here is a comparison chart between our traditional GDDR5 Ram ad x2 ad x4 stacks of DRAM with the control dies.

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You might have noticed that the 3D Memory to have a Dual Command input feature. The reason for this is that a single layer of 3D Memory has two RAM modules. I.e. an 8GB 4-Hi HBM RAM would be divided into 4 layers with each layer having, 1 + 1 GB configuration. This is what enables the Dual Command feature. Of course if we say increase every module to 4 GB, then on a 4-Hi HBM RAM we ca achieve a 16GB configuration and vice versa if we want to make it smaller. However in this generation, don’t expect anything above the 8GB 4-Hi HBM Ram configuration. Of course we can scale it to 8-Hi HBM Ram with a maximum capacity of 32 GB but that kind of memory in desktop GPUs is unlikely.

Nvidia Pascal: NV Link – A Very High Speed Interconnect
NVIDIA NVLINK GPU Scalability

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I would be very surprised if Nvidia’s ’3d memory’ is not utilized in AMD Next Gen too, considering that they are the ones who actually came up with HBM Ram not to mention the standard is open. However it is a slightly different story with the NV Link, which appears to be more or less proprietary. NV Link is going to come in 3 different layouts in the upcoming Pascal Architecture. The first one is irrelevant to us but I am going to touch upon it slightly anyways:
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1. NV Link designed for the IBM Power CPUs
2. NV Link designed for the GPU – CPU connection via your normal PCI Express slot
3. NV Link designed for the Onboard ARM – GPU Connection of future Nvidia GPUs.
Since IBM does not have a HPC/Server GPU solution, it has decided to pursue a very promising partnership with Nvidia. Pascal Architecture’s NV Link would see Nvidia, getting out of its comfort zone of x86 and making its GPUs interface with IBM’s Power CPUs. On the PCI Express mode the NV Link, which is basically a super high speed serial interconnect, uses an embedded clock differential signaling technique aka differential signal. This allows it to achieve nearly 5 – 10 times the speed of a PCI Express 3.0 running in x16 Mode. The actual speeds is though to be along the lines of 80GB/s to 230GB/s.
What Nvidia is going for is basically a complete point-to-point design where the processors are connected directly to each other without going through a third party channel. However this means that the current PCI-E slot is no good. So NV Link will have to be physically included in Motherboards of the future. Rumors put NV Link to be a glorified Mezzanine connector, which will allow, bluntly put, a socketed GPU. Since Pascal already has on package memory, Nvidia’s custom bus ‘NV Link’ with the help of a Mezzanine interface will allow never seen before speeds in GPU data transfer. Not only that but a custom Mezzanine connector will be able to supply far more than the 75W present in our PCI-E slots today, allowing GPUs to be completely powered by the NV Link. However Anandtech has raised some very valid criticism. The criticism being that NVLink is in no position to replace PCI-E anytime soon. Best case scenario being GPUs with dual NV Link – PCI-E connectivity and the server market (IBM) taking hold of NV Link completely. I won’t go into much more detail on how the NV Link functions via blocks, since that has already been covered multiple times. So umm, yeah, thats all folks.


Read more: http://wccftech.com/nvidia-pascal-a...-analysis-stacked-dram-nv-link/#ixzz2ycEpG1W7
 
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Yer Cat, CD keeps whinging on forums and blogs that nVidia is making a big thing of stacked DRAM when it will be used on AMD as well.
 
It seems AMD is also working on stacked DRAM with Hynix and Amkor:

https://semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=140928&postcount=26
http://electroiq.com/blog/2013/12/amd-and-hynix-announce-joint-development-of-hbm-memory-stacks/
https://www.semiwiki.com/forum/content/3003-amd-goes-3d.html

AMD had prototypes in 2011 and supposedly the PS4 was meant to use it. However,from what I gather it was too expensive to implement at the time.

Yer Cat, CD keeps whinging on forums and blogs that nVidia is making a big thing of stacked DRAM when it will be used on AMD as well.

Let him widge, you know what AMD are like at marketing, crap, they know it and so they just keep quiet.

In all probability the Nvidia 3D RAM will be using the JEDEC HBM standard, which funnily enough was developed by JEDEC and AMD.

Almost no one knows that, they made no noise about it at all.
 
Charlie's main point is AMD showed this off to the industry with a demo model in 2011, other companies have done also, Nvidia are showing off the same tech 3 years later because they are significantly behind, but acting like they are the first to come up with the idea and well, giving no one else any credit. The most likely outcome is AMD integrated stacked/on package mem first because frankly, they came up with it, they've done it behind the scenes for years and it's just waiting to become a viable product.

NVLink is a total no go in consumer, Nvidia has no consumer(performance/gaming oriented) cpu so can't release anything mainstream for gaming in the pc market with it on the cpu. So it would just be a gpu to gpu connection on a motherboard if they got someone along the lines of EVGA/Asus to make a mobo that supports it. Seeing as it would have to work and work well on non NVlink mobo's it's just not going to happen.

In terms of expense, I've actually heard it's less expense and more logistics. Seems few to any places are set to mass produce chips with stacked memory on package, none of the foundries tooled up for it at 28nm. 20nm is where it's supposed to appear with the fundamental tools/production line stuff to package it all together being part of the design.

This is the thing 28nm was starting mass production in 2011, it was in R&D for the previous 5 years. Stacked mem was a real possibility and not stupidly expensive in 2011, it was just going to be exceptionally, prohibitively expense to retool at 28nm with new 28nm fab equipment so it gets integrated into the next processes along.
 
Charlie's main point is AMD showed this off to the industry with a demo model in 2011, other companies have done also, Nvidia are showing off the same tech 3 years later because they are significantly behind, but acting like they are the first to come up with the idea and well, giving no one else any credit.
Marketing at the finest :p

Nvidia knew most of their end-users wouldn't care about details like that, so long as they get told what they want to hear.
 
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Charlie is a whiney little kid and nVidia said "no" to him at some stage, so he has made it a personal mission to never give credit where it is due and big up AMD at every opportunity.

Good job you are not like that DM ;)
 
Charlie's main point is AMD showed this off to the industry with a demo model in 2011, other companies have done also, Nvidia are showing off the same tech 3 years later because they are significantly behind, but acting like they are the first to come up with the idea and well, giving no one else any credit. The most likely outcome is AMD integrated stacked/on package mem first because frankly, they came up with it, they've done it behind the scenes for years and it's just waiting to become a viable product.

Wait, wut? Nvidia announce a new product. They never claimed they INVENTED stacked ram. So lets criticise them for not declaring their undying love for AMD for being party to its development. While they are at it, they should totally stop developing new products at all.
Do they mention 3DFX every time they talk about SLI? No? Naughty nvidia.
 
Charlie is a whiney little kid and nVidia said "no" to him at some stage, so he has made it a personal mission to never give credit where it is due and big up AMD at every opportunity.

Good job you are not like that DM ;)

Good job you don't ever read semiaccurate and continue to spout nonsense. Charlie knocks AMD more often than most and is rarely positive about them, aside from that sure yeah, he's totally pro AMD.

This is where the fanboys who knock Charlie get it wrong. Firstly he isn't remotely pro AMD, if he was why would he criticise most of what they do and rarely say they have done something brilliant. Second when Nvidia do something clever he says so. He talked UP denver as a piece of engineering, two years before anyone else knew what Denver was, when Denver is delayed he ASKED if it was cancelled and that is the only thing you guys focus on.

Charlie posts about general trouble with any company because when a company screws up is when it's tech news and not being talked about. When companies do something great they are public about it, not much uncovering to be done. Nvidia guys focus solely on bad news about Nvidia, claim he's pro everyone else and has a problem with nvidia as a reason to discredit him. Also with all the claims about how wrong he is all the time despite easily, very very easily being the most accurate tech news reporter out there, by a massive massive margin.


Wait, wut? Nvidia announce a new product. They never claimed they INVENTED stacked ram. So lets criticise them for not declaring their undying love for AMD for being party to its development. While they are at it, they should totally stop developing new products at all.
Do they mention 3DFX every time they talk about SLI? No? Naughty nvidia.

I'm not sure what your point is with this post, firstly you missed the main point and secondly I was simply pointing out what Charlie's article said. His MAIN point of the article, again, because you missed it apparently, was that Nvidia got up on stage talking themselves up with game changing stacked mem, when their competitors were showing such products 3 years ago. Nvidia were saying "we can do stacked mem on this product 2 years from now", while Intel/AMD SHOWED they could make them 3 years ago.

It's like Intel making an iphone today and saying "we're epic look what we worked out how to do", while all very nice that Intel finally made a decent phone, it's still at the same time saying "we just worked out what our competitors have known how to do for years". It's publicly stating you are 3-5 years behind your competitors on that technology, THAT was his point. I can't change HIS point because it's his article.
 
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Good job you don't ever read semiaccurate and continue to spout nonsense.

I can't afford to pay the $1000 a year subscription.

Looking at SA, the first article is about Kabini.

http://semiaccurate.com/2014/04/09/amd-launches-first-system-socket-soc-kabini/

Congratulations to AMD for turning an otherwise boring product into a compelling value play in the entry-level and small formfactor PC market.S|A

http://semiaccurate.com/2014/04/08/amd-launces-r9-295x2-faster-full-speed-dual-hawaii-card/

http://semiaccurate.com/2014/04/08/amd-launces-r9-295x2-faster-full-speed-dual-hawaii-card/

Since the Titan Z didn’t have a specified clock or ship date, anyone think Nvidia got wind of the R9 295X2 and decided to preempt the announcement? It looks like they didn’t get the specs or pricing of the 295 because they were way way off the price and performance mark.

http://semiaccurate.com/2014/03/27/denver-details-make-nvidias-explanations-tenuous/

With Nvidia damage control in full swing, lets take a look at why the Denver core is having problems. If you understand the underlying tech, some of the problems are obvious.

Everything he writes about nVidia is defamatory but AMD is all rosey and pechy. I don't have a problem with that at all and find it quite amusing but it is clear that nVidia took his toys away or didn't allow him something so like a spoilt brat, he just whines at them constantly. I enjoy reading it in truth :D
 
I'm not sure what your point is with this post, firstly you missed the main point and secondly I was simply pointing out what Charlie's article said. His MAIN point of the article, again, because you missed it apparently, was that Nvidia got up on stage talking themselves up with game changing stacked mem, when their competitors were showing such products 3 years ago. Nvidia were saying "we can do stacked mem on this product 2 years from now", while Intel/AMD SHOWED they could make them 3 years ago.

It's like Intel making an iphone today and saying "we're epic look what we worked out how to do", while all very nice that Intel finally made a decent phone, it's still at the same time saying "we just worked out what our competitors have known how to do for years". It's publicly stating you are 3-5 years behind your competitors on that technology, THAT was his point. I can't change HIS point because it's his article.

If that is what you took away from nvidia's presentation then that just shows your AMD bias coming through. Lets ignore the fact that nvidia already said they were going to do stacked ram with Volta. Nvidia were announcing a new product and talking about what features it will have, nothing more, nothing less.

regards intel + iphone... so where is this AMD graphics card from 3 years ago that already has stacked ram? can I go to the shops and buy one? just like an iphone? your comparison doesn't really stack up to actual logic does it

you, charlie, are making a big deal that nvidia didn't stand up on stage and say "oh, by the way, AMD helped invent this"... purlease
 
Who gives a _? Both Nvidia and AMD bring out some amazing cards and tech, they are as good as eachother and locked in constant battle as neither one is able to out do the other.

Competition is good, Nvidia aren't going to credit AMD for any technology they use developed by AMD, they never have, they are a competing company. AMD never credited Intel for their x86 Extensions, Intel never credited AMD for x64 or IMC's.
Today neither company could operate without using eachothers tech.

Its just the way it is, we all benefit from it. so its all good.
 
Excellent post Humbug well said.


[sarcasm mode] DM so why didn't AMD mention Jim early of Bells labs who first wrote and spoke about stacked chips publicly at the ISSCC in 1960? You make it out that it was AMD's idea and how dare anyone else even think of using it or something similar, without giving them credit. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm mode]
 
Excellent post Humbug well said.


[sarcasm mode] DM so why didn't AMD mention Jim early of Bells labs who first wrote and spoke about stacked chips publicly at the ISSCC in 1960? You make it out that it was AMD's idea and how dare anyone else even think of using it or something similar, without giving them credit. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm mode]

:D. Good find also
 
Interesting, but Nvidia will be using Micron's memory cubes, which specwise do look quite different.

33c3f6a749a25cf7.jpg


3077a86b18285257.jpg


^That would make a great Apu solution for budget gamer.
 
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