Nvidia RTX 5 months on-a win or fail?

[BigBANGtheory]

Add also the DLSS blurring and we have a fail?
Ooops no. Nvidia says it will take time for the AI to be trained to use DLSS effectively to remove the blur....

Oh that's just plain ridiculous, so what are we saying here that DLSS will work better on your 2nd play through. Unadulterated pure spin and tosh from Nvidia.

The verdict is in the 2000 generation hardware features are a fail, you're paying way over the odds for something that doesn't really deliver and even if the tech eventually does come good it will done better on the next cycle of products.

The only possible reason to buy a 2080Ti RTX is if the 30% performance boost over 1080Ti is a must have no matter the cost.

 

[Panos]

Oh that's just plain ridiculous, so what are we saying here that DLSS will work better on your 2nd play through. Unadulterated pure spin and tosh from Nvidia.

Actually might need more than 2 play through. But is even worse than this

https://www.techpowerup.com/252550/nvidia-dlss-and-its-surprising-resolution-limitations

There are limitations on resolutions and ray tracing even for the RTX2080Ti.

and getting even worse

We contacted NVIDIA about this to get word straight from the green horse's mouth, hoping to be able to provide a satisfactory answer to you. Representatives for the company told us that DLSS is most effective when the GPU is at maximum work load, such that if a GPU is not being challenged enough, DLSS is not going to be made available. Accordingly, this implementation encourages users to turn on RTX first, thus increasing the GPU load, to then enable DLSS. It would thus be fair to extrapolate why the RTX 2080 Ti does not get to enjoy DLSS at lower resolutions, where perhaps it is not being taxed as hard.

To sum up from the Nvidia reply.

Tensor cores are a known bottleneck with big latency, and the only way to work with them (aka DLSS) the normal shader cores need to be slowed down significantly (heavy load) for that to operate!!!!!
Bonkers. Nvidia was championing high FPS and high refresh rate monitors for years, now for their tech to work need to slow down?

 

[CuriousTomCat]

Mid tier is getting increasingly expensive and whilst it is business and partly down to the lack of competition from AMD, no pc gamer should defend it. You don't see anything wrong as you're no doubt happy at 1080p locked to a max of 60fps. Some of us expect a bit more given that was being done years ago and technology has moved on.

Im sure the GTX 1660 will be similar in price to the 1060.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Been using BF5 since RT release was in there and I've noticed an improvement in performance but not any degradation RT quality.If you can do workarounds/quick cheats to improve performance at this early stage where the hardware is not powerful enough, where where users won't even notice the difference during gameplay, you just take that opportunity.
Tessellation wasnt too dissimilar I think? Iit took a while to do it properly from both the GPU hardware and SW side of things. I remember NV being late to the game but announced "Tessellation done properly" when their new tessellation capable cards were released. Maybe AMD could get one over on them this time, "RT done properly" .

I don't play BFV, got bored a while back, but I've read that the ray tracing improvements have all come from gimping it. I was reading that at first ray tracing was on reflections and shadows but it's been removed from doing shadows completely (which are much more common than reflections) and that they've done things like have leaves disappear so they don't sit on puddles making the ray tracing more complex.

IE the optimisation is doing ray tracing on far far less stuff and making particles and objects disappear to make the reflections easier to do. If that is the case then Nvidia hasn't improved anything, the game is simply doing far less raytracing work today than it was at launch when performance was much worse.

 

[easyrider]

How can it not be fail?

It’s in one game and gimps the FPS...

 

[TNA]

How can it not be fail?

It’s in one game and gimps the FPS...

Yep. Big time fail. They showed a decent library of games and after all that time hardly any available. By the time it is a win we will be on 4000 series I suspect.

 

[AStaley]

For me to early to tell on RTX, the potential is there but the software to utilize it properly isn't there/or not quite ready. As a first gen product it's the equivalent of beta hardware/software put out there by nVidia for developers to get to grips with. I think over the next few generations of GFX card this is where we will see the focus of improvements.

Performance wise loving my 2080, it's a bigger jump from my 980Ti than I anticipated.

 

[Marine-RX179]

For me to early to tell on RTX, the potential is there but the software to utilize it properly isn't there/or not quite ready. As a first gen product it's the equivalent of beta hardware/software put out there by nVidia for developers to get to grips with. I think over the next few generations of GFX card this is where we will see the focus of improvements.

Performance wise loving my 2080, it's a bigger jump from my 980Ti than I anticipated.

Not just software limitation, but hardware limitation as well with the GPU still on 14/12nm.

Timing wise, it would make more sense to launch RTX along with 7nm GPU cards, but Nvidia always in favour in rushing out features that there are alternatives that would soon available as open-standard, just so they can get their followers to part with their cash sooner rather than later, so that the cycle can be repeated again sooner.

 

[Nasher]

After seeing the comparisons in Metro. RTX is a big fat fail.

Also if you want to have playable FPS you need to use DLSS, which is an even bigger fail.

I hope no one was dumb enough to buy in to the hype.

 

[ltron]

Actually might need more than 2 play through. But is even worse than this

https://www.techpowerup.com/252550/nvidia-dlss-and-its-surprising-resolution-limitations

There are limitations on resolutions and ray tracing even for the RTX2080Ti.

and getting even worse




To sum up from the Nvidia reply.

Tensor cores are a known bottleneck with big latency, and the only way to work with them (aka DLSS) the normal shader cores need to be slowed down significantly (heavy load) for that to operate!!!!!
Bonkers. Nvidia was championing high FPS and high refresh rate monitors for years, now for their tech to work need to slow down?

It's crazy, I thought DLSS might be the worthwhile feature of the Turing architecture, but with the disappointing image quality and all restrictions it's a massive disappointment.

 

[DarrenM343]

How can it not be fail?

It’s in one game and gimps the FPS...

How can it be a fail when future generations of cards, the GPU you buy a few years from now (or 1, or 6 months ), will be based on the same technology, the technology that is being further developed now as the products are in the market. Devs are using it and learning for the future while also working with NV who I'm sure are planning how they can step this forward (including future HW), and thanks to the feedback they will be getting from devs and gamers too.
RT takes away performance, DLSS gives it back.....albeit with the image clarity of a short sighted person not wearing their specs atm

I don't play BFV, got bored a while back, but I've read that the ray tracing improvements have all come from gimping it. I was reading that at first ray tracing was on reflections and shadows but it's been removed from doing shadows completely (which are much more common than reflections) and that they've done things like have leaves disappear so they don't sit on puddles making the ray tracing more complex.

IE the optimisation is doing ray tracing on far far less stuff and making particles and objects disappear to make the reflections easier to do. If that is the case then Nvidia hasn't improved anything, the game is simply doing far less raytracing work today than it was at launch when performance was much worse.

Ah, don't believe all you read though. I reckon it's a combination of improvements and probably a bit of reducing of the effect (gimping, if we want to call it that). There was good video done by a Dice dev a while ago talking through some of the optimisations they would do (now done), and stating they were working closely with Nvidia too.

I like the 20 series but see it as a taster of the future regarding RT, but definitely will be good to get to the next gen asap too, hopefully with a lot more RT processing power. I still think this will be 2020 however and the next gen after that will be when people stop thinking about RT - it'll just work

 

[Kaapstad]

I don't play BFV, got bored a while back, but I've read that the ray tracing improvements have all come from gimping it. I was reading that at first ray tracing was on reflections and shadows but it's been removed from doing shadows completely (which are much more common than reflections) and that they've done things like have leaves disappear so they don't sit on puddles making the ray tracing more complex.

IE the optimisation is doing ray tracing on far far less stuff and making particles and objects disappear to make the reflections easier to do. If that is the case then Nvidia hasn't improved anything, the game is simply doing far less raytracing work today than it was at launch when performance was much worse.

I noticed that with Ray Tracing on in BFV you can not see your own reflection in a puddle and it does not work right when you fire your weapon into water either.

 

[TNA]

How can it be a fail when future generations of cards, the GPU you buy a few years from now (or 1, or 6 months ), will be based on the same technology, the technology that is being further developed now as the products are in the market. Devs are using it and learning for the future while also working with NV who I'm sure are planning how they can step this forward (including future HW), and thanks to the feedback they will be getting from devs and gamers too.
RT takes away performance, DLSS gives it back.....albeit with the image clarity of a short sighted person not wearing their specs atm

Ah, don't believe all you read though. I reckon it's a combination of improvements and probably a bit of reducing of the effect (gimping, if we want to call it that). There was good video done by a Dice dev a while ago talking through some of the optimisations they would do (now done), and stating they were working closely with Nvidia too.

I like the 20 series but see it as a taster of the future regarding RT, but definitely will be good to get to the next gen asap too, hopefully with a lot more RT processing power. I still think this will be 2020 however and the next gen after that will be when people stop thinking about RT - it'll just work

I think what everyone is saying is, it is a fail thus far and likely a fail in the 2000 series as by the time 3000 series comes out there will likely only a handful of games supporting anything and even those will be crap implementations.

 

[DarrenM343]

I think what everyone is saying is, it is a fail thus far and likely a fail in the 2000 series as by the time 3000 series comes out there will likely only a handful of games supporting anything and even those will be crap implementations.

I know. I was trying to put things another way however . To me it's hard to see a step forward in technology, something that is going to be the future, as a fail . Without the 20 RT series there's no 30 RT series, or wouldn't be as well developed.
Many see it as a fail on price I think. Compare the 2080 tho to the new Vega and it's not a bad option - RT and DLSS exposure for free.

 

[Gerard]

I noticed that with Ray Tracing on in BFV you can not see your own reflection in a puddle and it does not work right when you fire your weapon into water either.

In all likelihood when dice "optimized" it before it was released to the public that was one of the things that got the chop. It was overblown to show it off for the presentation and then turned down when it came time to put it in the actual retail game. Then further optimized a while after it was put in the game.

At this point id hardly even call it ray tracing as its simply just creating reflections and not much else, at least in the case of BFV.

 

[TNA]

I know. I was trying to put things another way however . To me it's hard to see a step forward in technology, something that is going to be the future, as a fail . Without the 20 RT series there's no 30 RT series, or wouldn't be as well developed.
Many see it as a fail on price I think. Compare the 2080 tho to the new Vega and it's not a bad option - RT and DLSS exposure for free.

Yep. Too expensive. If it was cheaper then people would understand it is first gen stuff and not to expect much. But when Nvidia market the way they do and charge for it the way they do, you can see why people think it is a fail.

 

[easyrider]

Yep. Too expensive. If it was cheaper then people would understand it is first gen stuff and not to expect much. But when Nvidia market the way they do and charge for it the way they do, you can see why people think it is a fail.

It’s immoral

But then again , if one is not strong enough to refuse to buy into to new shiny ,like I was ,then I guess the strong will always prey on the weak.

 

[chrcoluk]

Actually might need more than 2 play through. But is even worse than this

https://www.techpowerup.com/252550/nvidia-dlss-and-its-surprising-resolution-limitations

There are limitations on resolutions and ray tracing even for the RTX2080Ti.

and getting even worse




To sum up from the Nvidia reply.

Tensor cores are a known bottleneck with big latency, and the only way to work with them (aka DLSS) the normal shader cores need to be slowed down significantly (heavy load) for that to operate!!!!!
Bonkers. Nvidia was championing high FPS and high refresh rate monitors for years, now for their tech to work need to slow down?

It would seem they using different chips in the different SKU's then that perhaps can only upscale to specific resolutions, so the difference is bigger than the number of cores.

Notice how the 2080ti cannot utilise DLSS at 1080p or 1440p.

 

[JediFragger]

Notice how the 2080ti cannot utilise DLSS at 1080p or 1440p.

Probably means UW 1440p too, dayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyym

Probably just have to decrease resolution render and get a better result

 

[drunkenmaster]

https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/software/metro_exodus_pc_performance_review_-_rtx_on/6

holy hell, that image is so bad, with DLSS the gun becomes a blurry disaster and the building in the distance. lol, there are people all over reddit claiming that DLSS is great because blurring everything makes it seem more real. The fact that DLSS is in no way supposed to, was never advertised blur games doesn't matter, you've got a bunch of people saying it looks more real because it's blurred so they love it.

That's all we needed, Nvidia should have been blurring every game for years by rending at 1/4 resolution and giving you a mess but it's more 'real'. The way people excuse anything is always hilarious to me.

Everything in the description and devliery about DLSS always screamed upscaling, which is, in effect the opposite of supersampling and we've had both since forever. YOu want higher quality textures then render supersample by rendering a higher res, downscale to native and get better textures, better IQ. Upscaling is the opposite, taking a low res image because it's faster and upscaling it to (usually) native res, this has always and will always result in a quality drop.

How Nvidia can have the words super sampling in the acronym for it I really don't know. They are advertising really the opposite feature (in application, they work differently) but calling it the 'better' feature name.


https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/software/metro_exodus_pc_performance_review_-_rtx_on/7

This is even worse though and put the nail in the coffin of me buying the game any time soon. The ray tracing on... aside from being too dark to the point it's stupid, doesn't really do anything special. THe killer is ray tracing off is like a game with lighting from 2005. Shadows are almost completely absent, there is little to no ambient occlusion going on. This is what you always fear with pretty much any and all Nvidia interference in game development. They've gimped the living hell out of normal lighting to make ray tracing look far better by comparison. THe only thing I see unique in the ray tracing on images is a tiny reflection on whatever that canister is on the train.


So DLSS was a straight up lie and despite promises looks worse and gains less performance than normal downscaling and games now that use ray tracing may be gimped into looking like they were made 15 years ago to make ray tracing better by comparison. SO even if you bought an Nvidia card, if it was a previous gen card you get stuck with terrible lighting in a modern game and if you have an RTX card you can choose decent performance and crap lighting, or terrible performance and almost entirely standard for any other game in the past 5 years lighting.

I mean even in that water scene at the bottom, the reflections without ray tracing look fine and in motion probably indistinguishable, the only issue is the image is washed out crazy badly and 'ray tracing' adds back the depth to the colour.