One for the landlords - mould

[platypus]

We recently received a complaint about mould from our letters. I'm keen to try and be a good/fair landlord here but this seems a little off to me.

The agents are going in to inspect the property soon, after a power boiler flush and boiler service (it aint cheap being a landlord!) so we'll see what the extent of it is, but we lived in the house for 7 years before letting it, and whilst I know you let certain things slide when you actually own a property, we never ever had mould in there, and if there had been even a hint of it we'd have done whatever necessary to get rid of it.

Would you charge the tenants for this either to get it fixed straight away or take it out of the deposit?

 

[platypus]

The only thing I could conceivably think it is is that they're not airing the bathroom properly, eg having showers with the window closed or not running the ventilation fan.

We dried clothes indoors, no mould. I don't - thinking about it - remember if we specifically opened a window when doing so, but we'd often have a window open anyway.

Do you have a clause in the contract stating its the tenants responcibility to ensure adequate ventilation to prevent mould, and to pay for repairs to rectify?

That's a good point, checking with the boss now.

Hm tough one.Inspect the flat yourself and see how bad it is.

Unfortunately that isn't possible.

 

[platypus]

You need to find out if its their fault first before starting to charge the tenants. The reason could be anything. Our flat has mould and no matter what I do it keeps coming up. The agency/landlord wont do anything in our situation though which is as annoying as what you must feel atm.

Well that's why I'm keen to find out whats going on and will wait and see what the agents say. I do actually want to do the right thing, but just find mould an odd one.

 

[platypus]

Unless they've been negligent, it's your responsibility to sort the mould out not theirs.

Yeah I understand that, how do you determine negligence though, leaving windows shut in winter is...normal isn't it?

 

[platypus]

Unless they have done something malicious like damage the roof or walls of the building on purpose. Or purposely leaving windows wide open during constant rain, then I cannot see why you would even think about trying to charge them.

Because to my mind it can only have gotten mouldy if they are doing something off/weird/negligent. If it was a property we'd bought purely to BTL it would be one thing, but as I've said we lived in the house for 7 years without a single problem.

As above though will wait and see.

 

[platypus]

It's a couple.

 

[platypus]

Combi, not sure where the mould is we've not had any contact since the first lot....still waiting to hear from the agents. Now thats another waste of money..

 

[platypus]

Forgot to update this as the fix only happened recently anyway. Some mould in the stairway because they haven't been venting properly. We got it cleaned up and they're hopefully going to vent properly in future.

Firstly. I love that this is your first reaction. Quick, can I take their money now or later!? Typical landlord response, without waiting to hear the full story from your tenants.

It's an honest enough question. If it's their fault, they can clean it up. If it isn't we'll get it sorted. As it was, yes it was their fault but we had it cleaned. But yeah, way to assume the worst straight off. You sound like an irresponsible tenant.

Poor you. What if it's quite serious mould that they haven't caused themselves and that might have damaged, or be damaging their health? What if they were too worried to contact you because they thought you'd react the way you have in the first instance? What if they've suffered in silence and tried every possible remedy before contacting you. Honestly, just step back, use a bit of common sense and remember you're talking about people and their home here. And yes, it's their home whilst they pay the rent. Not yours.

Actually, they would have contacted us instantly if it was serious, as they are friends of friends. We have no problem with them contacting us direct, and speak to them fairly regularly. As we're not present, it makes sense to have an independent verify the problem? Doesn't it? Or would you rather we just assumed it was their fault straight away? So yeah, get off your high horse.

 

[platypus]

Out of interest why is it inconsequential? Given that we had it inspected by a neutral third party before tenants moved in, and there where no issues with mould? When it could be demonstrated that they're not airing the place properly?

 

[platypus]

Well it's a fact that the tenants must keep it in the condition that it was found, wear and tear obviously not withstanding. Given that the inspection - by a neutral third party - before they moved in found no issues, it's been surveyed in the last two years (for mortgage purposes) and no problems of any kind were found (including structural), wouldn't the onus be on them to return it to us free of mould?

It's a moot point as we've paid to have it cleaned, but I'm just intrigued as to why you think it's so obviously not the tenants problem? Like I said in the very first post I'm keen to "do the right thing", and would quite like to be a decent landlord, but if they're causing issues like that in future maybe they could meet us half way on the costs of professional cleaning. I don't really see that as being unreasonable.

 

[platypus]

I am not saying it is obviously not the tenants problem. I am saying it is potentially not of their direction causation. I am also saying as it is your property then you really want it addressed before it exacerbates - they can and will walk away from such problems you can't. I am also saying that the notion mould only occurs due to negligence from the occupiers is flawed.

Given the nature of the situation though, we do know that the mould has only arisen since they've moved in. You're right in that we would struggle to prove it in court (obviously its not going to go to court, but playing devils advocate for a second).

There are two sides to being a good landlord, it's not unfair to expect reasonable tenants is it?

 

[platypus]

I agree but you haven't actually ruled out a underlying reason and are assuming the problem is of their causation. Could it not be something has changed - it has been very wet and windy since you left etc.

You are suggesting they aren't being reasonable tenants and yet you have no proof of this other than a report of mould which has not been investigated sufficiently by your or anyone else. Are the windows and trickles vents still functional, is the extractor fan sufficient and functional - all it may take it the pipe to move in the cold weather and condensation to pool there and you've got a problem, etc.

I'm not suggesting they aren't being reasonable. What I still don't understand is why you seem to think that it's impossible that it is their fault. I would completely understand if it was say a buy to let, or a property we'd lived in before and known about mould issues, but the fact is it isn't. But, we're going round in circles and obviously we're not going to agree. You seem to think I'm lying, but the mould has come since they moved in. It's that simple. You're quite right that its up to us to keep the property in a safe liveable condition and I don't mind that at all. I also know that if it was due to structural problems we'd have to get it sorted, and rightly so.

Another back street landlord that has just found out that rent income is not 100% back pocket money. Bet you don't declare your rental earnings either.

A useless, unfounded and insulting post. Unless you've nothing useful to contribute, shut up.

 

[platypus]

It's like with a garden if you rent a house whilst you expect the garden to be kept tidy and in seasonal order if a tree root pushes up the patio then you can't really push that one on the tenants.

Agreed. Mold however? In a property thats never experienced mold, with more than adequate ventilation? I'm not convinced the argument that its been a "very wet and windy year" is really much cop either.

 

[platypus]

It may not be but as I've pointed out you'll have a devil of a time proving otherwise.

So you need to make the choice and think about this logically. You seem to have decided that it is most likely their fault - I don't think anything will sway you from that thought - and therefore need to make another decision: do I expect all tenants to care for my property as if they were me or is it these particular tenants who are worse than others.

If I may offer again something from my perspective. I personally don't give a stuff about the small amount of mould in our bathroom - if he fixes it I stay here if he doesn't and it was a problem I would move as I am paying an awful lot in rent every month (still cheaper than buying a big house where I live for just another few years though). I really don't care tbh about the house it is not a home to me it's just big enough and in the right location for me. I keep it clean and tidy and report any problems promptly but in no way do I care for this place as much as I would my own. Do I leave that en-suite window full open to alleviate problems when I get up at 6 in the morning - hell no it's cold - the extractor fan is on and the window is open a bit and the house is warm - if it then gets mould that really isn't my problem. If it was my place I'd stick a better extractor in and block off that venting etc. You haven't yet determined that there is no new structural problems or if the extractor fan is sufficient etc.

I guess I am saying even a good tenant like me will only go so far as there is no ownership there and no guaranteed longevity to the agreement. Is it any wonder tenants then don't care for the property as much or treat is as a home they have no right to make such an investment so you won't get the care that you gave it. As a landlord you need to face up to this.

I'm obviously a little naieve in thinking that someone would treat something as well as I would then, which is a shame. But then given that I've never been a landlord before I don't suppose I'll apologise for it. Having been a tenant for an awful long time though, I don't think it unreasonable though that I'd be expected to air the house a little better, or take what steps I can to prevent mold growing - structural problems aside.

This has gotten a little past the generic question I was originally posing, and you seem to have gotten a little more personal about it (no dramas, I posed the thread) but; I wonder what it would take for you to actually accept that it might be the tenants fault, and I'm not - how was it LeeUK put so obstreperously and rudely - a back street (whatever that means?) landlord?

Under what circumstances would you actually accept that the tenants might reasonably be asked to say meet halfway the costs of cleaning? LeeUKs unpleasantness aside, and whilst he was being facetious about the sentiment of pocket money it really isn't cheap being a landlord (insert the world smallest violin etc - don't get me wrong I realise it's a priviledged position).

@rIcK perhaps a dehumidifier is a good idea.

 

[platypus]

I am merely pointing out yet again that:

You've not had the placed assessed to determine the root cause of the problem
You have no way of proving negligence on their behalf
You have no way of proving there were no prior problems

Now if you were able to reasonably prove all those then you would have a case but as you quite clearly can't then it is a moot point isn't it.

That is not me getting personal about it at all

You've made it personal, by automatically assuming I'm lying, and I like the notion that I assumed there was no risk. When I mentioned naievity, it was having faith that people would treat something as well as you would, rather than that being a landlord would be a cheap way to make a quick buck. Legally speaking obviously we're on thin ice I do realise that.

You've ignored the generic question I asked, so rather than go back round in circles lets just ask it one final time, and I'll make it even simpler for you. Is it unreasonable for the tenant to contribute to cleaning costs if they are to blame?

Given that there is no evidence that they are to blame quite rightly we have gotten it sorted. As was said several times on the first page, which you seem to have conveniently ignored to try and hammer home your point, we're trying to ascertain what the actual fault is.

 

[platypus]

To be fair there's starting to become a lot of landlord hate as well .

Look at LeeUKs post, and look at Xordiums repeated disbelief that there couldn't possibly have been mold in the house before the tenants moved on? No the landlord must be lying!

We didn't become landlords to make an easy buck off someone elses hard work, we did so to pay the mortgage whilst we're away, and more importantly so we have somewhere to return too in either an emergency or when we do decide to come back. Heaven forbid that we should worry that our investment is being well treated.

Yep there are plenty of horrible landlords. Guess what - there are plenty of horrible tenants.

 

[platypus]

Fungicidal paint is a great idea actually.

@Michael this one?

 

[platypus]

I've not assumed you are lying. Pretty lame of you to say so tbh:

Several times you've assumed straight off that when I've said there was no mould previously, this couldn't possibly be right. That certainly sounds like you think I'm lying to me.

You clearly haven't thought this through at all and were obviously just looking to make easy money. Well there is no easy money in this world. Now you are on here looking for methods to penalise someone else for your own shortsightedness.

I'll say it again, simpler for you so perhaps you can understand it. Not once have we thought it would be easy money. Simple enough for you?

TBH it's people like you who shouldn't be landlords because you give the rest of us a bad name. You haven't thought something through at all and then are trying to punish others for you bad decision making. I've said throughout that the tenants need to abide by good housekeeping but the landlord needs to take control of structural problems - you haven't bothered to have the later assessed yet you are just presuming nothing has changed with the windows, the ventilation, the outside structure etc.

You've ignored the part where the agency have gone in and checked things for some reason (I'm not for a second suggesting that this is as effective as a structural survey). We've had the heating power flushed, the boiler serviced - outside of its annual regular check, and an electrician in to check the ventilation is working as it should be. So to say we haven't "bothered" doing anything is rude and insulting. But no. You carry on telling me how bad I am for trying to make a quick buck whilst doing fa about it!

Lets try again, baby steps for you. I'll ask it hypothetically, since you can't seem to get off your high horse whilst enjoying the opportunity to tell me how bad a landlord I am.

In a situation completely unrelated to the OP, if the tenants could be proved to be at fault, is it unreasonable to expect them to contribute towards cleaning it up?

 

[platypus]

Yes there is an extractor in the bathroom and kitchen.