Onkyo TX-SR 307 .. time to upgrade

[Chaos666]

Hi

before I start searching i decided to give forum a go.

Long story short.... I have my Onkyo TX-SR 307 since 2010 connected to a Quadral Quintas 500 spearker set which I own probably from 2010.
It still works great and fulfills my audio needs in terms off sound quality/experience etc.

It's a bit dated though. I was using it with PS4 PRO that has optical out but now upgraded to PS5 and i have no way of sending audio to the amp (I know i can buy HDMI Audio Extractor). I am looking for an affordable amp with 4K, audio over hdmi with decent sound quality and ARC support so i can get rid of the optical cable from the TV to the amp.
Having features like spotify etc is not neccesary but would be nice.

My aim is to get an upgrade on a low cost and I am fine with used market.

Any advice?

 

[lucid]

The AV receivers market has changed a lot since you last bought in 2010. We've had almost 15 years of UK austerity since the global financial crisis of 2007-2008. On top of that there has been a seismic shift in the entry-level home AV market away from physical media and surround kits to streaming and sound bars. Topping that off we've had the commercial impact of Brexit since the leave vote in 2016, but the effect intensified from 2019. Then there has been the global pandemic from 2020.

As a result Onkyo has pretty-much evaporated, and Pioneer too. The Denon range has shrunk dramatically in the last 12-months. Sony came in strong with their STR-DN range about a decade ago culminating in the big hit model STR-DN1080 of 2017, but this hasn't been replaced. Although its rrp was somewhere around £600, it could be bought retail for around the £450 mark and sometimes a shade below that. However, during its model life a number of bugs surfaced that were never successfully resolved.

For "entry-level", it looks like the only game in town is the Yamaha HTR2071 @ £299 from RS. It ticks all the essential compatibility boxes such as ARC, HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 and HDR, but at this price it lacks Dolby Vision and the multichannel outputs for the extra Atmos speakers. For that, you need to spend more.

The Denon AVR-X1600H (non-DAB ver') @ £440 is the next rung higher. Here, all the boxes are ticked. Between this and £500 you'll find the Yamaha RX-V4A and the DAB version of the Denon 1600H.

AVForums Classifieds would have been my suggestion as a go-to for used, but the pickings there are very slim at the moment. You're looking at mostly older middle-range receivers selling at £500+, and you'll have to pick your way through the compatibility lists. Be aware too, several of the newer-generation Denon AVR-X series receivers run very hot. They won't tolerate being enclosed, even if the cabinet has an open back.

 

[Chaos666]

thank you for your answer.
i am looking for something cheaper though... I also realise today that i can passthrough the sound from HDMI on the TV to the optical so problem is partly solved. Still maybe its time to do a bit of an upgrade

 

[lucid]

This is what you said you wanted:

I am looking for an affordable amp with 4K, audio over hdmi with decent sound quality and ARC support

"affordable" and "decent sound quality" are both rather subjective terms. I would say though that bottom-end receivers - lower in fact than your current Onkyo - are not renown for their sound quality unless you limit the scope just to movie playback, at which point they become acceptable.

ARC is a definite feature standard, but that would rule out a lot of the sub-£200 AV receivers currently on Ebay.

4K is a term bandied about quite liberally, but there are multiple different versions of 4K compatibility. These range from the full spec "works with HDR and Dolby Vision" down to "well, it upscales to 3840 x 2160, so that's 4K, right?". The latter isn't worth a light because any 4K TV already does that anyway.

I think you have a real challenge on your hands. What you want isn't available under £100 unless you're willing to drop the 4K requirement. Even then you'll struggle to find something with ARC support without scraping the bottom of the barrel In other areas. This is purely based on what's currently available on Ebay and AVforums classifieds.

Drop the 4K requirement and your options open up, but you're spending £100-£200 simply to swap an optical cable for a HDMI. The sound quality won't change. Audio via HDMI ARC and Optical are exactly alike, but you will gain the advantage of HDMI Control.

Good luck in your search.

 

[Chaos666]

Drop the 4K requirement and your options open up, but you're spending £100-£200 simply to swap an optical cable for a HDMI. The sound quality won't change. Audio via HDMI ARC and Optical are exactly alike, but you will gain the advantage of HDMI Control.

Good luck in your search.

Thx again for your answer.
I was not expecting arc to be such a expensive feature.
Since i have a 4k tv there is no point of buying something that cannot do 4k 60
I think i will have to wait a bit more before upgrading

 

[Schizophonic]

Hi, I'm in a similar boat to the OP, sorry if you dont mind me hi-hacking this thread but I have a Denon AVR 1910, so its quite old.
I recently purchased a LG 55BX and I'm having to use the optical out of the TV as my AV doesn't have ARC support.

I don't change or upgrade receivers as often but do you think the Denon AVR-X1600H is something I'll be satisfied or should I spend a little more like AVR-X2700H

As this gives me a bit of futureproof.

 

[lucid]

Thx again for your answer.
I was not expecting arc to be such a expensive feature.
Since i have a 4k tv there is no point of buying something that cannot do 4k 60
I think i will have to wait a bit more before upgrading

ARC itself isn't an expensive feature. It has been around for a decade or so on AV receivers, so it's well established as a core HDMI feature. Where things get expensive is when you start to say that you want ARC and 4K and decent sound quality and ... and ... and ... Your product choices narrow down very quickly.

On top of that you then have to factor in the supply of used AV receivers. These come from people selling what they have to buy new. The AV receiver market has taken some big impacts in the last 3 years. This has restricted the supply new models, and so like a housing shortage, whenever supply is restricted then the price of what is available goes up as a result.

The time when there was lots of model choice and fierce competition in the new market has gone. That was five years ago.

Today, in 2021, after almost 15 years of world economic turmoil, and after the double-whammy of UK's mini recession due to Brexit and the world-wide economic disaster of COVID-19, and after shifting 4K UHD standards from just scaling to 4K res' to needing HDR, and then a higher standard of HDR to include dynamic metadata and the following standards fight between HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, and the compatibility problems surrounding HDCP standards and higher frame rates; well, it's all been somewhat traumatic. Now throw in the changes in audio "must haves" from simple 5.1/7.1 ex/es to Dolby Atmos not to mention streaming and hi-res audio and Bluetooth standards and app control. Then there's the factor of what's happening in the general audio markets.

There's been a big shift to sound-bars in the bottom-to-mid-range market. The success of brands such as Sonos has come at the expense of sales volume for entry-level AV receivers from all of the major AV market brands. Dod you know that Onkyo basically closed its doors on its US business? Or that Onkyo and Pioneer now merged? That's right; two once-mighty brands now have to live under the same roof to fight for survival. .. You get the picture?

The used market lags behind the new market by a few years. The supply of new gear and changing standards drives the supply of older gear in to the used market as people upgrade. Aside from the shift to soundbars, and the shrinking AV market, the other major event was thousands of HC enthusiasts sitting at home furloughed during 2020 with their eyes on Ebay and other used-gear outlets and their fingers poised over the Buy-It-Now buttons. They've Hoovered-up lots of the decent gear to the point now where anything respectable sells in minutes on AVF.

Conclusion of all this is that you're coming in to the used market at what could be considered the biggest supply shortage it has seen since AV receivers first became a thing. This is unprecedented. Not even the events of 2007/2008 compare.

"Is ARC expensive?"
No. There was a 2013-model Denon AVR-X1000 with ARC that sold on Ebay for just £50. It had ARC, but it didn't have your and.... and ... and... wish list; and that's the difference.

 

[lucid]

Hi, I'm in a similar boat to the OP, sorry if you dont mind me hi-hacking this thread but I have a Denon AVR 1910, so its quite old.
I recently purchased a LG 55BX and I'm having to use the optical out of the TV as my AV doesn't have ARC support.

I don't change or upgrade receivers as often but do you think the Denon AVR-X1600H is something I'll be satisfied or should I spend a little more like AVR-X2700H

As this gives me a bit of futureproof.

I guess it depends on how long you plan to keep the receiver for. Of the features that I consider a useful upgrade, eARC is a nice to-have, and the double HDMI outs with 4K to the 2nd zone might be useful if you're planning on doing some major building work and installing the cabling for TV signal and Zone-2 speakers in another room.

Stuff I'm less convinced about is the 8K compatibility. History shows us that standards for advanced video formats don't stand still. Folk who bought 4K-upscaling amps as a future-proofed feature found themselves catching a cold when HDR and DV and HFR were announced. That's not enough to dismiss the 2700, but I'm saying that 8K as a feature in its own right isn't of any value until the dust settles around standards, and that'll be several years in the future.

The 2700 has higher-grade audio components, and so really you should demo the pair to find out of you can hear a difference. It's also worth bearing in mind that if music is important to you - and by that I mean you play CDs, FLACs, and maybe have a hi-res streaming subscription or two rather than you BT some audio files from your phone or stream Youtube - then the 1600 lacks an audio direct feature, and that Denon in general is not marketed as the choice for audio enthusiasts. That's why the sister brand Marantz exists.

Have a look at Yamaha as well as Denon. The brand might not have the power on paper of Denon, but you really need to hear the products to find out if that's really such a big deal in practice.

 

[hornetstinger]

I do like Yamaha sound, pretty neutral, but their power amps in the AVR (when many channels are driven) aren't the best. With lesser speakers, they're not too bad. I think the cheapest 471 AVR with two channels driven was about 100W, that is plenty and you have benefit of HDMI/Optical/Digital inputs plus bass management (I was using a AVR in stereo for a long time in the PC rig) Yamaha pre out stages aren't the best either. Their room EQ is a bit basic, but it has improved my Ruark speakers. They're reliable also.

Denon have more power, better amp stages, and pre-amp, better room EQ. Not as reliable as Yamaha.

 

[Schizophonic]

I guess it depends on how long you plan to keep the receiver for. Of the features that I consider a useful upgrade, eARC is a nice to-have, and the double HDMI outs with 4K to the 2nd zone might be useful if you're planning on doing some major building work and installing the cabling for TV signal and Zone-2 speakers in another room.

Stuff I'm less convinced about is the 8K compatibility. History shows us that standards for advanced video formats don't stand still. Folk who bought 4K-upscaling amps as a future-proofed feature found themselves catching a cold when HDR and DV and HFR were announced. That's not enough to dismiss the 2700, but I'm saying that 8K as a feature in its own right isn't of any value until the dust settles around standards, and that'll be several years in the future.

The 2700 has higher-grade audio components, and so really you should demo the pair to find out of you can hear a difference. It's also worth bearing in mind that if music is important to you - and by that I mean you play CDs, FLACs, and maybe have a hi-res streaming subscription or two rather than you BT some audio files from your phone or stream Youtube - then the 1600 lacks an audio direct feature, and that Denon in general is not marketed as the choice for audio enthusiasts. That's why the sister brand Marantz exists.

Have a look at Yamaha as well as Denon. The brand might not have the power on paper of Denon, but you really need to hear the products to find out if that's really such a big deal in practice.

Your reasons does make sense, it took me about 10 years to upgrade my old Panasonic TX-P42S10. 8K isn't something thats gonna come into the mainstream. The only devices I plug into the receiver is my HTPC but as most of the content I watch are on the streaming services from the TV its doesn't effect me too much. I only have a 5.1 setup and I can't see my little corner living room housing any more speakers. The dolby atmos is a nice touch but do you think it makes a difference? The upwards firing speakers.

I dont listen to hi-quality music, I'm by no means an audiophilia.

I dont think also the 2nd zone is anything I'm looking to do, my old Demon had it but it never was something I end up using.

What Yamaha do you think would suit my needs from what I've described? I looked at the 2700 and had a planned budget of £600 for an amp but if i can save a few hundreds to get something less feature pack I'll definitely worth considering.

 

[Chaos666]

Well.. once again thank you for you help. Just looking at the length of your answers i can tell you are very passionate about all of this.
As you said decent sound is a different thing for everybody. My old onkyo is satisfying for me as i am not an audiofile.
I found onkyo tx-sr444 for around 200£ on ebay.. Any opinion about that? I've heard about some issues with hdmi boards on some of the models.

 

[lucid]

Well.. once again thank you for you help. Just looking at the length of your answers i can tell you are very passionate about all of this.
As you said decent sound is a different thing for everybody. My old onkyo is satisfying for me as i am not an audiofile.
I found onkyo tx-sr444 for around 200£ on ebay.. Any opinion about that? I've heard about some issues with hdmi boards on some of the models.

You're right about the HDMI boards problem with Onkyos. There's also an issue with failure of the Optical input processing on some models too.

Onkyo came out of the gate strong on HDMI and stole a lead over its competitors back in 2004 when it was the new connector must-have. The brand continued to lead on price and features for the next 5-6 years, but the cracks started to appear in their strategy. The amps ran very hot. This is what caused the premature failures. It did the brand's reputation a lot of damage in the trade even after newer models seemed to be more reliable. This is partly the reason for the company's change in fortunes. It's a path that Denon seems to want to take too, which is why I'm a bit cautious about some of their hot-running feature-laden price-leading amps. It's deja vu.

I think that if you've been happy with the 307 then you'll be at least as happy with the 444. It does Atmos audio and has ARC. There's no support for HDR though.

 

[lucid]

Your reasons does make sense, it took me about 10 years to upgrade my old Panasonic TX-P42S10. 8K isn't something thats gonna come into the mainstream. The only devices I plug into the receiver is my HTPC but as most of the content I watch are on the streaming services from the TV its doesn't effect me too much. I only have a 5.1 setup and I can't see my little corner living room housing any more speakers. The dolby atmos is a nice touch but do you think it makes a difference? The upwards firing speakers.

I dont listen to hi-quality music, I'm by no means an audiophilia.

I dont think also the 2nd zone is anything I'm looking to do, my old Demon had it but it never was something I end up using.

What Yamaha do you think would suit my needs from what I've described? I looked at the 2700 and had a planned budget of £600 for an amp but if i can save a few hundreds to get something less feature pack I'll definitely worth considering.

Done right, Atmos can be very effective. The best results are with in-ceiling speakers because they fire directly at the main listening position. If positioned correctly so that the sound bounce is properly targeted, then up-firers will probably deliver 80% of the effect. This presumes that you're listening to audio that's real Atmos content rather than some fudged pseudo-surround effect done to normal surround with the Dolby Upmixer.

As for alternative amps, there's not a massive choice. Have a look at the Yamaha RX-V4A.