Parking Charge Assistance

magicroundabout · 14 Dec 2024 at 19:12

Back in the summer my partner and her daughter went to Student Accommodation in London to clear the flat of belongings and parked in a clearly signed "Loading Bay".
A very friendly parking warden has ticketed my partner as stating that they were not loading and time frame of photos supplied was 10mins apart.

The Loading Bay has a max time frame of 40mins.

I have argued this once already as Brent Council have tried to state the bay is for loading vehicles only (delivery lorries etc) yet according to The Highway Code the actual sign states "loading by any vehicle".
We have already provided proof of loading and also stated my partners daughter was staying on the 8th floor and allowing only 10mins to get to the apartment, collect belongings and load is unreasonable and unfair.

I was wondering if anyone has some advise on how best to reply again to the Council as they have dismissed my original argument.

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

muon · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:08

You want to post here

Parking tickets, fines & parking

Confused about parking penalties and fines? Get help with all kinds of car parking problems.

forums.moneysavingexpert.com

Also whilst it is max 40 minutes, you need to be continuously loading. If the warden saw nothing for 10 minutes, then you likely weren't. I'd say belongings should have been on the ground floor already. I always see students when doing this gather belongings on the ground floor or dump them all first when unloading.

magicroundabout · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:12

muon said:
You want to post here

Parking tickets, fines & parking

Confused about parking penalties and fines? Get help with all kinds of car parking problems.

forums.moneysavingexpert.com

Also whilst it is max 40 minutes, you need to be continuously loading. If the warden saw nothing for 10 minutes, then you likely weren't?

cheers I'll try there.

They were there a maximum of 30mins and were up and down numerous times within this. Once to collect a fridge which they both had to carry.

Workmen next door even told the attendant that they were loading and he ignored them

muon · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:13

magicroundabout said:
cheers I'll try there.

They were there a maximum of 30mins and were up and down numerous times within this. Once to collect a fridge which they both had to carry.

Workmen next door even told the attendant that they were loading and he ignored them

There is a limit to how long you can just go off to get stuff. I'd say 10 minutes seems reasonable.

This is also a penalty charge, not a parking charge.

magicroundabout · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:17

there is no where which states constantly loading etc. The law under the signage doesn't state this either

muon · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:20

magicroundabout said:
there is no where which states constantly loading etc. The law under the signage doesn't state this either

Loading and Unloading is already defined as continuous. It doesn't need to add the extra word. Collecting for 10 minutes isn't loading.

If you stop eating for 10 minutes, you aren't eating.

magicroundabout · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:22

where is the definition for this under parking law?

muon · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:26

magicroundabout said:
where is the definition for this under parking law?

It'd defined through precedence.

You want to dispute councils, you should probably hire a lawyer.

Loading and unloading vehicles - Camden Council

Advice on parking when you are doing deliveries.

www.camden.gov.uk

Where you can load and unload

Yellow lines Unless loading restrictions are in force, you may load and unload on single or double yellow lines for as long as necessary before 11.00am, and for up to 40 minutes after 11.00am. Loading or unloading must be continuous. Loading restrictions are identified by yellow stripes...

www.lambeth.gov.uk

Loading and unloading

Loading and unloading is permitted for 20 minutes in resident bays and street pay-to-park bays.

lewisham.gov.uk

Must be seen to be done continuously.

magicroundabout · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:29

hiring a solicitor is fine. Continuously loading/unloading is in itself impossible

muon · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:35

magicroundabout said:
hiring a solicitor is fine. Continuously loading/unloading is in itself impossible

Well both the Lambeth and Lewisham policy is to issue a ticket if no activity is seen for 5 mins. I suspect Brent is similar (edit: It is 10 mins).

magicroundabout · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:36

muon said:
Well both the Lambeth and Lewisham policy is to issue a ticket if no activity is seen for 5 mins. I suspect Brent is similar.

I'm unable to find it tbh. I'll keep looking

tom_e · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:47

magicroundabout said:
hiring a solicitor is fine. Continuously loading/unloading is in itself impossible

No it's not :confused:

if you've got a pile of stuff by the vehicle you can easily continuously load it in until you're done then leave.

magicroundabout · 14 Dec 2024 at 20:47

tom_e said:
No it's not if you've got a pile of stuff by the vehicle you can easily continuously load it in until you're done then leave.

but the apartment was on the 8th floor!!!

tom_e · 14 Dec 2024 at 21:08

magicroundabout said:
but the apartment was on the 8th floor!!!

Just playing devil's advocate as far as the council are concerned you could have parked in a normal space slightly further away and brought everything down, left someone with it while the other brought the car and parked in the loading bay and got it all in in one go.

10 minutes with no activity again doesn't seem unreasonable or else what's to stop people parking there and appearing at the time limit with some random big box to load.

Traffic wardens aren't going to listen to random people backing you up because lets face it 99% of us would agree the grass was purple if it peed off a traffic warden.

How much was the fine? By the time you've got a solicitor, paid them and spent more of your own time sorting it all to possibly win or not the original fine will have been the cheaper option.

Haggisman · 14 Dec 2024 at 21:17

So they've provided 2 photos 10 minutes apart showing no loading at exactly those particular times?

Where's the proof you weren't loading between those times?

muon · 14 Dec 2024 at 21:23

Haggisman said:
So they've provided 2 photos 10 minutes apart showing no loading at exactly those particular times?

Where's the proof you weren't loading between those times?

Doesn't need proof. Only needs to show greater than 50% probability. The photos are probably 90% chance an offence occurred.

What's the OP gonna say when a judge or adjudicator straight up asks them, was there any loading/unloading in the car in between the photos?

Feek · 14 Dec 2024 at 22:23

tom_e said:
Just playing devil's advocate as far as the council are concerned you could have parked in a normal space slightly further away and brought everything down, left someone with it while the other brought the car and parked in the loading bay and got it all in in one go.

This is what you should have done and I don't think this is worth contesting.

Haggisman · 14 Dec 2024 at 22:31

muon said:
Doesn't need proof. Only needs to show greater than 50% probability. The photos are probably 90% chance an offence occurred.

That completely depends on the circumstances. If the warden walked past and took a photo at 10:00 and there was nobody loading, kept on walking and came back and took another photo at 10:10, that proves that there was nobody loading at 10:00 and nobody loading at 10:10. It does not prove that nobody was loading at the following times:

10:01
10:02
10:03
10:04
10:05
10:06
10:07
10:08
10:09

And anyone unable to grasp that simple reality is unfit to be in any position of responsibility, much less a legal position.

Now if the warden waited by the car and has multiple photos within that time, or CCTV or other footage showing that no loading took place, then fair enough, but otherwise... yeah, good luck with that!

muon said:
What's the OP gonna say when a judge or adjudicator straight up asks them, was there any loading/unloading in the car in between the photos?

Probably* a truthful "yes", given:

magicroundabout said:
They were there a maximum of 30mins and were up and down numerous times within this. Once to collect a fridge which they both had to carry.

"numerous" times within 30 minutes doesn't exactly leave a lot of uninterrupted 10 minute periods of no loading...

*based purely on the information given by the OP - obviously I don't know for sure, I wasn't there, and granted, "numerous" may very well be "2", and "30 minutes" may very well be "39 minutes and 59 seconds"

Mr Badger · 14 Dec 2024 at 22:42

Haggisman said:
That completely depends on the circumstances. If the warden walked past and took a photo at 10:00 and there was nobody loading, kept on walking and came back and took another photo at 10:10, that proves that there was nobody loading at 10:00 and nobody loading at 10:10. It does not prove that nobody was loading at the following times:

10:01
10:02
10:03
10:04
10:05
10:06
10:07
10:08
10:09

And anyone unable to grasp that simple reality is unfit to be in any position of responsibility, much less a legal position.

Now if the warden waited by the car and has multiple photos within that time, or CCTV or other footage showing that no loading took place, then fair enough, but otherwise... yeah, good luck with that!

Probably* a truthful "yes", given:

"numerous" times within 30 minutes doesn't exactly leave a lot of uninterrupted 10 minute periods of no loading...

*based purely on the information given by the OP - obviously I don't know for sure, I wasn't there, and granted, "numerous" may very well be "2", and "30 minutes" may very well be "39 minutes and 59 seconds"

I have never researched this, but why do you think your interpretation is correct? The 2 pictures presumably demonstrate that on two occasions 10 minutes apart it was recorded that the car was parked there with no loading taking place. Therefore CONTINUOUS loading was not occurring.

Haggisman · 14 Dec 2024 at 22:56

Mr Badger said:
I have never researched this, but why do you think your interpretation is correct? The 2 pictures presumably demonstrate that on two occasions 10 minutes apart it was recorded that the car was parked there with no loading taking place. Therefore CONTINUOUS loading was not occurring.

Define "continuous"?
At all times an item in conveyance to/from the vehicle?
Does there always need to be part of the item or one of the people loading inside the vehicle?
If not, from what distance? What is the legally defined radius in which you are allowed to load from, before it becomes non-continuous?
How many seconds of "non-loading" counts as non-continuous?

Would it be reasonable to expect someone to have a pile of items sitting on a wet floor in the rain while they are loaded for potentially 40 minutes (plus the time it takes to move the transporting vehicle from wherever it was parked to the loading bay?).

What is the purpose of the loading restrictions? Is it to raise money or to prevent people from using the loading bay as a parking space?

Those 2 pictures could just as easily have been taken by the parking warden waiting specifically until there was nobody near the car for a few seconds.

As far as I'm concerned, that is no proof at all, however if that is what the legal system feels is the "correct" outcome, then I'd be inclined to feel my morals and beliefs were no longer in alignment with said legal system, and would therefore have no further obligation to abide by it (other than to serve my own self-interest to avoid punishment).