Part time web desiging in todays market

Soldato
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I've been thinking about creating web sites for local businesses for some time now. I know people have been doing it for a while now, but is that market really saturated?

I mean there are loads of online tools novice users can use to create a basic website. Why would anyone want me to create one for them? I ask becasue a friend of mine started his own business and created a pretty good website using templates and it does the job well.
 
Soldato
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Part time is do-able. Just think of it more as a hobby than a business or you'll grow frustrated.

Drop business cards round doors/phone the company and offer to undercut any serious quote they get.

You should really have a few websites you've already done to show off.

And write into the contract that they have to use your host for a couple of years. Make back the undercut on the hosting service :). Management is worth more than the design if using prefabs.

Bare in mind I've only done it as a hobby but its earned me a few notes :).

I imagine if you're good enough then word will spread and it might be viable.
 
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I say go for it.

The company I work for commissioned a new website and it was shockingly bad. It ended up that we (the developers in IT) rewrote much of it before it went live.

If the market is saturated, as you suggest, there's still scope for someone that can deliver a decent site at the right price.
 

AJK

AJK

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I've been thinking about creating web sites for local businesses for some time now. I know people have been doing it for a while now, but is that market really saturated?

If there's a gap in the market in your area for someone to offer web design/development services to local businesses, then go ahead. The work has to exist though; don't assume that just because a local business doesn't have a website, or has a rubbish one, that they'll want something new.

The other problem is that (nationally-speaking, anyway) there's no shortage of people who've spent 5 minutes playing with WordPress and think that makes them a web designer/developer/infrastructure manager - that's probably not you, but that's what you may be competing with. Make sure you've got some portfolio material to show any prospective customer, and research what other people in the area are charging so you know what your customers will expect.
 
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Part time is do-able. Just think of it more as a hobby than a business or you'll grow frustrated.

Drop business cards round doors/phone the company and offer to undercut any serious quote they get.

Bare in mind I've only done it as a hobby but its earned me a few notes :).

I would say, absolutely do not do this at all.

This kind of attitude has destroyed a few injuries, undercutting others to earn a bit of extra cash, when the offer could be another businesses only source of income is totally out of order.

I experienced this in the photo industry, being undercut constantly by amateurs with cheap equipment, no insurance, just doing it as a bit of extra cash. I couldn't afford to live just working for the money they was willing to take, and it has pushed a lot of professional photographers out of business.

I hate the practice of undercutting for a bit of extra cash, and would urge anybody thinking of it to think again, and at least bid at the current market rate.
 
Caporegime
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I would say, absolutely do not do this at all.

This kind of attitude has destroyed a few injuries, undercutting others to earn a bit of extra cash, when the offer could be another businesses only source of income is totally out of order.

I experienced this in the photo industry, being undercut constantly by amateurs with cheap equipment, no insurance, just doing it as a bit of extra cash. I couldn't afford to live just working for the money they was willing to take, and it has pushed a lot of professional photographers out of business.

I hate the practice of undercutting for a bit of extra cash, and would urge anybody thinking of it to think again, and at least bid at the current market rate.


He can do what he wants with a quote, undercutting is perfectly legal. The inverse is not though, price fixing is illegal.

I never understood this attitude, if the business you operate can't compete with hobbiest undercutting then the bussiness has serious issues. To charge a premium you need to proove the additional costs are justified, if you can't do that then you are charging too much for the market and need to lower your costs.

Do you think supermarkets should all artificially keep prices raised and stop Aldi doing business because it is undercutting them?

It is a freemarket, if someone or some business can charge lower to secure more business they have every right to do that.the primary goal of a business is to generate as much profit as possible, that may mean lowering prices to attract more business while streamlining operations to reduce production costs.
 
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He can do what he wants with a quote, undercutting is perfectly legal. The inverse is not though, price fixing is illegal.

I never understood this attitude, if the business you operate can't compete with hobbiest undercutting then the bussiness has serious issues. To charge a premium you need to proove the additional costs are justified, if you can't do that then you are charging too much for the market and need to lower your costs.

Do you think supermarkets should all artificially keep prices raised and stop Aldi doing business because it is undercutting them?

It is a freemarket, if someone or some business can charge lower to secure more business they have every right to do that.the primary goal of a business is to generate as much profit as possible, that may mean lowering prices to attract more business while streamlining operations to reduce production costs.

You miss the point. Amateurs are often charging minimal amounts that if they was paying PI and 3rd party liability cover, as any responsible person on site should be, plus paying their income tax legally, national insurance, having enough to take time off for a holiday/sickness, then you can't survive charging what the amateurs do.

I'm not saying it's illegal, I am saying, think of the moral aspects of what you're doing by undercutting people who live from that work.

Yes it's a free market, but they can only charge less as they are often not legally declaring income so not paying tax or NI for it, they don't need to value their time highly as they often have another job that pays for holiday and sick pay. If they had to pay what the full timers pay then they couldn't make a profit on that either.

People subsidising income with alternative work, in my opinion, should have enough morals to do so fairly, and not using 2nd full time jobs to undercut those who need to charge more to survive.

As to your hobbyist vs full time business the differences in costs are clear.

The hobbyist as I said, is often not declaring the income, so not paying tax on it, nor are they paying the correct NI for self employment, they have a 2nd job that subsidises their living costs, holiday pay, sick pay. They often have no Professional Indemnity cover, or 3rd Party Liability cover.

The full time self employed guy will have correct cover, be having to pay tax and NI on the earnings, have to be earning enough to be able to cover some kind of holiday pay, or sick pay.

If you can't see what harm the hobbyist does for the pros then you are totally blind.

It has also skewed the market entirely, and it's not uncommon to see people looking to hire somebody and pay them by allowing them to use it as portfolio work, this has become common place since students started offering to do work for free for their portfolio. It is short sighted and damages the market for all those involved, apart from the hobbyist earning a few beers at the expense of the guy trying to buy his dinner for the next week.

For the record, I am also against the tactics used by supermarkets to put local businesses out of operation. The hobbyist argument is just an extension of this in my opinion.
 
Soldato
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Whilst I see what you're saying I never mentioned evading tax. Even as a hobbyist you should be declaring the extra income. There's no need to pay NI if you only take dividends from a ltd. I also do not believe PI or 3rd party liability to be applicable in this case as the amount of time spent on site is next to nill(or even nill). The work is done from home in this case with communication done via phone/email or a lunch with the prospective customer.
 
Soldato
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Anyone here actually do what I'm thinking of doing? How do you balance your time between your day job, family and friends?
 
Caporegime
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I used to, but quickly stopped doing it as I found working with clients to be a serious pain in the rear, too much trouble for my liking.

I work in web development during the day as well mind, so it might be that it felt much more than simply 'a hobby' to be doing this after hours also.
 
Soldato
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@Alienfish360:

So basically what you're saying is you're incapable of competing creatively with the hobbyists and young kids coming up, so you're crying foul that their flexible business models are making you look too expensive.

Tough ****, frankly.

As a professional, you're supposed to be better than the hobbyists creatively, technically and in a business capacity so you can discuss and educate your clients as to why going with the cheapo bloke is a bad idea, why commissioning a professional - regardless of the higher price - is the better choice, and have the portfolio to support your "premium" price tag.

If you're not any of those things, then you need to reconsider your business model, how you promote and how you operate.

It's attitudes like your that caused me to lose an 11-year long job when the company closed. It's also facing the harsh reality that any hipster with a DSLR can sometimes produce some stunning work that kept me in the web industry after I was made redundant and went freelance.
 
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@Alienfish360:

So basically what you're saying is you're incapable of competing creatively with the hobbyists and young kids coming up, so you're crying foul that their flexible business models are making you look too expensive.

As a professional, you're supposed to be better than the hobbyists creatively, technically and in a business capacity so you can discuss and educate your clients as to why going with the cheapo bloke is a bad idea, why commissioning a professional - regardless of the higher price - is the better choice, and have the portfolio to support your "premium" price tag.

If you're not any of those things, then you need to reconsider your business model, how you promote and how you operate.

It's attitudes like your that caused me to lose an 11-year long job when the company closed. It's also facing the harsh reality that any hipster with a DSLR can sometimes produce some stunning work that kept me in the web industry after I was made redundant and went freelance.

Because no matter how much you educate a potential client all they see is £200 for a wedding shoot vs £1000+

For a weekender, £200, no real expenses on that, nice bit of extra cash on top of your wages.

To survive self employed on £200 weddings, you would need to be shooting them almost everyday, all year.
 

AJK

AJK

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Because no matter how much you educate a potential client all they see is £200 for a wedding shoot vs £1000+

For a weekender, £200, no real expenses on that, nice bit of extra cash on top of your wages.

To survive self employed on £200 weddings, you would need to be shooting them almost everyday, all year.

You're missing the point. If what you're offering is no better than what someone else is prepared to offer for £200, then you should expect to lose business. (Or, if you're unable to explain why your service is worth what you're charging!) That's the way it works in the real world, sorry. You don't get to call this unfair or immoral; it isn't. Market forces drive prices; if there are hobbyist photographers working in your area who are willing to do the same job as you for a fifth of the price... you need to rethink your business.
 
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Soldato
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Because no matter how much you educate a potential client all they see is £200 for a wedding shoot vs £1000+.

Rubbish. As I said, you show the client what the benefits are of using a professional. You show portfolio, you show your talent, your skill, you discuss options and ideas and craft their overall experience. You prove to them through all of this that a weekend hobbyist is not qualified to do the job.

But if you don't do any of this then you need to seriously look inwards and work out why shoving a camera in somebody's face costs over a grand when a weekender can do it for a fifth.

I know times are tough, and I'm near exhausted competing with ridiculously low programming rates from Indian and Chinese slave farms undercutting everything I do. but the fight and the argument is always what your overall offering is and WHY it's better to use a professional.
 
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But, quite a few of these weekenders ARE good, and can do work of a very high standard. But price massively low as they don't need to live.

When this is the case it devalues the whole industry.

You say you're exhausted with low programming rates. What if you was competing against ridiculously low programming rates from the UK, that were just as good.

I assume you have not read any other posts? The difference is having to pay insurance, tax, NI, money for sickness or even some time off. It is a massive difference than some extra cash because they already work 5 days per week on £20k+ the money is just "extra spends", not money to have to live from.

That £1000 wedding has to cover about 40 hours of work, depreciation of equipment, insurance, then you can start thinking about putting cash away for sickness as you have no company sick pay. Then you get your pay out of it.

Thankfully, weddings weren't my primary area, but the weekenders charging silly prices was the reason I stopped, it's not possible to compete with a good weekender who just wants a bit of extra cash.
 
Soldato
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You're sounding like my previous employer, and he effectively went bust. You cite all of the factors of insurance, time spent, equipment depreciation as the reasons you charge thousands of pounds for a job because you see all of these outgoings and panic thinking you must charge a lot of money to cover it all. It's just not true.

If the weekenders are charging £200 and getting the work then you charge £200 and get the work too. Because clearly it's easier to land 5 £200 jobs than it is to land a single £1000 job. And don't spend 40 hours on it either, because what are you spending 40 hours doing? And if it's a part of the service (cleanup/manipulation, proofs, prints, etc.) then THAT is your differentiator to the weekenders who won't be doing that, but it's a sell-up not a core part of the job.

And it doesn't matter where the competition comes from. Competition is competition and in my field I have to somehow get around the cheap slave labour coming out of India. Yes, the client will see my £250 a day vs their £50 a day and question what planet I'm on. But all they see and think is "well, my stuff gets programmed and job's done" which is FAR from the truth. Deployment support, aftersales support, spec meetings, team and deployment liaision, project flexibility and generally being easy to contact are all things you don't get from an India slave farm. You do with me, and that is my differentiator and how I can tangibly justify why I'm more expensive. And if they don't want any of that stuff, then I'll just bang out code, hand it over and be done with it, because that's all they paid for - i.e. I only spend the time they paid for.

It's cutthroat out there, but sticking to old views, claiming cheap labour devalues the industry and how it's immoral are all the sounds of established old-timers who cannot or will not move with the times. My previous employer is the perfect example, and he lost everything because he refused to reassess "video is £1,000 a minute".
 
Soldato
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To be fair when I started out as a sparky I had all my qualifications but not much in the way of practical experience. I was straight with customers that I didn't have as much experience as the other guys but I was willing to undercut them massively. Word spread and I slowly increased prices. I still undercut everyone but there's no shortage of work and I have the skills to back it up now.

I plan on doing the same with app development eventually (need more experience).

Maybe I'm a dick but I'm not in business to make others lives easier. I do it for myself and if I can beat your price I will.
 
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