PHEVs - talk to me (Outlander in particular)

[Haggisman]

I've currently got a Niro on order, but it's not due till September. I previously dismissed PHEVs as being a bit pants, but thinking more, I wonder if it's exactly what I need.

Looking at something like an Outlander, Niro, or Optima estate.

My normal usage is a couple of short trips during weekdays - dropping off and collecting kids from childcare (2 mile round trip), dropping off and picking up the other half from the station (3.5 mile round trip), so total of ~11 miles/day.

Occasionally have to drive the other half to work when the trains don't turn up, which is a 15 mile round trip.

Weekends we occasionally go on day trips in the local area, which are usually within 50 miles round trip.

Other than the longer weekend day trips, I believe almost all of this would be covered by the 30-40 mile electric range, at a cost of ~2p/mile, or round £5-10/month.

So far so good.

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Now the bad part - we do a few longer trips during the year as well:

Visiting my mum 2-3 times; 200 miles each way, can charge at hers.

Visiting other family members, and camping trips, 5-6 times; 200 mile round trip (no charging there).

Looking at PHEVs, fuel only economy on the motorway is hard to find, but seems around 30-40mpg?

Based on that, I'd be looking at ~£70 to mum's, £35 on the other trips, total of ~£400/year or £30-35/month, vs £50/year/£5/month pure electric.

Small fuel difference of £30, vs ~£120/month payment more for the Niro.

Would also need to add VED and maintenance to the PHEV, so another £65(?)/month? Still slightly cheaper, but not by much.

However, that would be to buy the PHEV, vs handing the Niro back at the end of it.

How are my man-maths holding up so far? Any real world experiences of the cars I've listed, recommendations? Outlander is attractive in particular because of the practicality (big boot, 4wd for those muddy campsites) and a lot of them around so can be a bit more picky when shopping, but I understand its less economical (would be looking at the newer 2.4l)

 

[Tinders]

Quite a few people had the outlander at work as company cars. Range was 20 miles on electric on a very very good day in summer. But those that charged regularly, did get 50mpg on a longish run. Tbh i didnt really like the car, felt very agricultural, not engaging at all to drive, it was just a way to pay less company car tax.

The sums dont stack up for a private buyer, that 20 mile range will cost ~£3.50 at the current unit rate, and likely to go up anyway. Theres better PHEV options if you are a company car driver, and if you're a private buyer, PHEV is a pointless purchase imo, may aswell just a standard hybrid like a toyota type one. I have a 3 series PHEV and the range is pants in winter (20) and less pants in summer (35). MPG is acceptable for the power on offer (48mpg on a run), but the fact the batteries eat into the boot space, it just means its a pain to live with at times.

But if you must have a budget SUV PHEV, then have a look at the Kuga or the Rav4.

 

[Haggisman]

I'm on octopus go, so 7.5p/kwh, and basing consumption on my zoe, less a bit due being a bigger heavier car, problem with a standard hybrid is it still involves regular trips to a petrol station, whereas in theory a phev would only require it before/after a long journey. To match the phev running cost on electric power, it would also have to do ~300mpg on those shorter journeys, which I don't know if that's feasible? Besides, they're not really hybrids IMO, just petrol cars which happen to have electric motors, if I wanted a petrol car, I'd buy a cheap petrol car

As far as the Kuga and Rav 4 go, they are 2-3x the price of the Outlanders I've been looking at, so in that case I'd be better to just stick with the Niro.

Looks like my initial dismissal of them may have been spot on after all

Given the way prices have dropped recently, a couple of year old Niro or MG5 might be the best option now!

 

[sandys]

PHEVs still work as hybrid with a bigger battery when battery is flat.

I'm only a few weeks into my PHEV ownership and a private buyer , neither EV or PHEV makes sense as a private buyer due to costs involved, petrol trumps all, at least at my mileage, we got one for wishy washy green reasons, we've done 700miles in it so far, only used just over half a tank of fuel, local milage is all EV, EV range is very dependant on what you do, what's being used, temperature and where you are going, really variable, just like an EV, so we've see anywhere from 25-37 miles so far in EV mode, average is ~30 miles, hopefully continues to increase as it warms but 30+ is fine for us, just have to plug it in most days, on your tariff that would be equivalent to min 130mpg, avg 160mpg and max 192mpg after charging loss (quite high in my inefficient Volvo ~ 15%) reviews and forums suggest people get similar milage out of the smaller Outlander battery, which could have it nudging 300mpg equivalent on a good day.

Got my first 300 mile trip on Friday, so will see how it performs, also got a 500 mile trip towing next month, in both case there will be no charging opportunity just Hybrid mode after set off charge. As I've been using a big diesel 4x4 for most of this and 21-24mpg was the normal, my PHEV has got a low bar to beat, I'd be quite happy with 30-40mpg in a petrol SUV on big trips

If you don't have requirements such as towing, I'd probably look a straight EV if you do the mileage.

 

[gailjon]

I have the same usage pattern as you, with mainly short journeys during the day and then the occasional long journey to Scotland, days out, etc. My previous Audi Q7 50tdi averaged 34mpg over 20000 miles while my present Sorento PHEV has averaged 65mpg over 20000 miles. Obviously the lourneys up to the 30 miles ev range are done in ev only so no consumption. However, the longer motorway journeys see me average around 35 mpg with a full car at the speed limits for the roads.

If it was me and I didn't need 7 seats, I would have bought a full BEV. My wife has an ID3 which can get 200 miles round trip in summer and around 180 miles in winter. However, at no point have we ever been stuck for charging in long journeys that require a top up.

 

[Tinders]

PHEVs still work as hybrid with a bigger battery when battery is flat.

I'm only a few weeks into my PHEV ownership and a private buyer , neither EV or PHEV makes sense as a private buyer due to costs involved, petrol trumps all, at least at my mileage, we got one for wishy washy green reasons, we've done 700miles in it so far, only used just over half a tank of fuel, local milage is all EV, EV range is very dependant on what you do, what's being used, temperature and where you are going, really variable, just like an EV, so we've see anywhere from 25-37 miles so far in EV mode, average is ~30 miles, hopefully continues to increase as it warms but 30+ is fine for us, just have to plug it in most days, on your tariff that would be equivalent to min 130mpg, avg 160mpg and max 192mpg after charging loss (quite high in my inefficient Volvo ~ 15%) reviews and forums suggest people get similar milage out of the smaller Outlander battery, which could have it nudging 300mpg equivalent on a good day.

Got my first 300 mile trip on Friday, so will see how it performs, also got a 500 mile trip towing next month, in both case there will be no charging opportunity just Hybrid mode after set off charge. As I've been using a big diesel 4x4 for most of this and 21-24mpg was the normal, my PHEV has got a low bar to beat, I'd be quite happy with 30-40mpg in a petrol SUV on big trips

If you don't have requirements such as towing, I'd probably look a straight EV if you do the mileage.

Volvo's have quite a big battery, so are a decent option, i'll be looking at the V60 when i change the 330e.

If you have a cheap tariff then it starts to make more sense, im filling up at 1.35, so cost per mile EV fueled or conventionally fueled is getting closer at the standard rate.

 

[Haggisman]

If you don't have requirements such as towing, I'd probably look a straight EV if you do the mileage.

If it was me and I didn't need 7 seats, I would have bought a full BEV. My wife has an ID3 which can get 200 miles round trip in summer and around 180 miles in winter. However, at no point have we ever been stuck for charging in long journeys that require a top up.

No need for towing (although I've specced a towbar on the Niro for a bike rack) - sounds like I'm better sticking with the Niro or looking at one of the similar 2nd hand full BEVs now the price has come down then?

 

[gailjon]

No need for towing (although I've specced a towbar on the Niro for a bike rack) - sounds like I'm better sticking with the Niro or looking at one of the similar 2nd hand full BEVs now the price has come down then?

Genuinely there is no real reason not to go for a BEV if you have home charging available and you don't go 200 plus miles every day. There are some great cars that can do close to 300 miles but this needs a large battery and if you are travelling that kind of distance regularly (several times a week) it would need rapid charging which can be expensive. Also, compared to a PHEV servicing is much cheaper, reliability is likely to be much better for a BEV over a PHEV and there is the lack of NVH compared to a petrol/diesel car which makes every journey comfortable.

 

[sandys]

Volvo's have quite a big battery, so are a decent option, i'll be looking at the V60 when i change the 330e.

If you have a cheap tariff then it starts to make more sense, im filling up at 1.35, so cost per mile EV fueled or conventionally fueled is getting closer at the standard rate.

Yup the Volvo is not bad, it's not the most efficient, though I have only experienced winter, so I've been doing 1.7-2.4 miles per kwh which compared to a normal EV seems poor and it charges real slow, missus can charge it twice in the odd day though even at 3.6kw/h.

If PHEV is your thing like me because EV won't cut it, the new Merc C300e looks decent, even bigger battery @ 25.6Kwh which is nudging ~60miles real world, faster charging and seems to be cheaper than Volvo, I priced up a c300e @ £45k higher level of tech when it comes to screen and interface, battery takes big chunk out of boot though, so estate might make more sense, whereas the Volvo uses the trans tunnel so no boot impact, I think the Volvo is great though, just a little behind the times, Despite being android for example there's no Android Auto, though strangely car play not a biggie as we get a lot of apps but miss stuff like whats app.

Yup I don't have a super cheap tariff so my mpg equivalent is between 40 and 50mpg based on filling with e5 @ 1.47 for me this is fine, as mentioned my diesel was doing sub 24mpg for same driving profile

No need for towing (although I've specced a towbar on the Niro for a bike rack) - sounds like I'm better sticking with the Niro or looking at one of the similar 2nd hand full BEVs now the price has come down then?

Just get on zap map with the journeys you have done in the past couple of years and the journeys you plan to do, see if it can work, just have some insight on battery capacities and charging speeds to work out what it will be like for you, Niro charges slow but is fairly efficient, will likely do over 4mpkw.

We were going to buy the little Volvo XC40 as it could tow 1800kg and had reasonable range but the reality was that once towing I'd be lucky to get 120miles of range, which is fine if you can charge it up quickly at a rapid charger but get on Zap map for most of the tracks or sites I might visit for example next month I take my car up to Anglesey ~250 miles one way, In a BEV I will need a full charge halfway, not a splash and dash and a full charge when I get there to come back, fine when your are in civilization, but when your in Wales lots of 7kw and a few 50kw now but that's not good enough, never mind the logistics of charging with a trailer attached, so PHEV it was.

there is the lack of NVH compared to a petrol/diesel car which makes every journey comfortable

That's car dependant, driven normally, you'd not know you were not in an EV with the Volvo even when the engine is on, it is quieter than some EVs I have tested. Though I do admit to wondering what that vibration was when the engine was on and I was idling only time I have felt it, normally it'd be in EV mode at a stop but I was testing charge mode.

A Niro is not a quiet EV, in fact most of Kias range is a bit uncooth, particularly in the suspension and road noise department. ( I tried an EV6, Sportage PHEV and ended up ordering a Niro EV for cheapness which I ultimately cancelled, which reminds me, I've not had the deposit back )

I did consider just keeping the diesel for towing and running the Niro day to day, but I already have too many cars to keep up together.

 

[Haggisman]

Just get on zap map with the journeys you have done in the past couple of years and the journeys you plan to do, see if it can work, just have some insight on battery capacities and charging speeds to work out what it will be like for you, Niro charges slow but is fairly efficient, will likely do over 4mpkw.

We managed to make it work with a Zoe for 18 months, so I'm familiar with having to plan routes around charges etc. Ultimately we got rid because of covid & working from home meant barely touching the car, and having a 2nd child which meant it was too small. Currently driving an old (2009) Octavia estate, which does the job, but isn't ideal for the short journeys (getting 25mpg at the moment! )

We were going to buy the little Volvo XC40 as it could tow 1800kg and had reasonable range but the reality was that once towing I'd be lucky to get 120miles of range, which is fine if you can charge it up quickly at a rapid charger but get on Zap map for most of the tracks or sites I might visit for example next month I take my car up to Anglesey ~250 miles one way, I will need a full charge halfway, not a splash and dash and a full charge when I get there to come back, fine when your are in civilization, but when your in Wales lots of 7kw and a few 50kw now but that's not good enough, never mind the logistics of charging with a trailer attached, so PHEV it was.

Yeah... a few camping trips to Wales were interesting to plan around chargers

I did consider just keeping the diesel for towing and running the Niro day to day, but I already have too many cars to keep up together.

I did consider that option - pick up a cheap Leaf or similar for the short journeys, keep the Octavia for the longer trips, but then it's 2x insurance, maintenance etc. so would work out more expensive than just getting a longer range EV!