Photography... and the law.

PoundforaBrown · 27 Jun 2012 at 16:05

Hi guys.
I've posted this to try and start a guide to photographer's rights and any advice for photographers when dealing with the law.

I have been stopped and asked to account for myself on a fair amount of occasions in London and indeed in Oxfordshire for just taking photographs.

My wish is to compile as much information together, be it guides, personal information, the law, code of practices for the police and a general discussion about photography and the law. It will be something very useful for the budding photographer to learn and understand the procedure of what the police can do and what you could/should/ought to do to minimise conflict, harassment or even arrest.

To a photography beginner or someone who had trouble before can find conflict involving the police can be very intimidating.

Photography is not a crime but some people like to see it as one.

Something Else · 27 Jun 2012 at 16:10

some people take offence to you taking their picture as they are usually ugly

as far as im aware street photography is perfectly legal as its in a public place and anything that the public have access to its also legal unless there are signs expressly forbidding photography, its only on private land you can be in trouble i think?

James J · 27 Jun 2012 at 16:17

Can break this down in a few ways but I'll try my best and keep it bulleted instead:

- if you are on PUBLIC property, you can take a photo of whatever you want, within reason
(within reason = don't take shots of kids, security camera's or banks)

- if you think you are on private property, seek permission to take photographs BEFORE doing so. This includes places like shopping centres which aren't public land. You can seek permission but it is normally in advance via a letter which includes your intent and what you wish to photograph, why and what you'll do with those photos.

- Avoid taking photographs in a train station unless you seek permission before hand. Can be viewed as surveillance by the police and security, meaning you'd be subject to a stop and search

- Security guards will often try and stop you taking photos of the outside of shops even if you are on public property (council pavement), which is illegal. Inform them of your rights and where you are standing and ask them to inform the police if they persist. If they touch you it is assault and stand your ground, yet be courteous throughout regardless. If the police are called and you are indeed on public property, they'll inform the security guards and allow you to continue.

- You can be stopped in the street and asked what you are doing as an informal question by police/PCSOs. I've had this happen myself and being open and honest with them means they'll let you on your way without issue. They have a right to ask you what you are doing, yet don't have a right to ask you for your personal details, see your photographs or delete photographs. You can also take photos of police officers if you are on public property without issue, although asking them if you can first is usually a good idea out of courtesy.

- If the police are involved in an operation, you cannot photograph anyone the bring out of a property, but you can photograph the police. You need to ask them before this though or you'd be liable for a stop and search and giving details over as they could think you are in some way related to the suspect

PoundforaBrown · 27 Jun 2012 at 16:48

Firstly the police or PSCO can stop you and ask you to account for what you are doing. This is within their right. They or a member of the public might portray someone with a big cool looking DSLR as being a bit suspicious.

This called a Stop and Account it is NOT a Stop and Search. The police will ask you what are you doing, just say to them "Taking photographs officer". Be kind and courteous to them, it's only a question. "It's a sunny day, there's plenty of plants and wildlife and people around. I'd be silly to stay indoors on a day like this"... you get my point.

This should suffice (if you have followed some of the rules which were posted above). At no time are you OBLIGED to give your details to an officer during this stage. He may say "you must, in order for me to check on you or to record", again you are not OBLIGED to. The police do not have to make a record or give you a receipt. But you may be asked to give your ethnicity.

Andy90 · 27 Jun 2012 at 16:54

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/2009/05/14/uk-photographers-rights-v2/

http://www.urban75.org/photos/photographers-rights-and-the-law.html

http://www.met.police.uk/about/photography.htm

Those three sum up about all you need to know.

pecnarf · 27 Jun 2012 at 17:00

here link to the post in the "photography sticky" thread http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12202725&postcount=6 it cover the law but if i remember correctly read somewhere that in regards to courtrooms that is currently under review to allow some processing to be record or photograph within reason so it maybe subject to amend.

also in regard for when out ands about photo of cars i think you required if displaying in public to hide the number plate of the car or any vehicle that in the photo but think if it isn't required it still a good idea to do it out of courtesy for the owner.

James J said:
If the police are involved in an operation, you cannot photograph anyone the bring out of a property, but you can photograph the police. You need to ask them before this though or you'd be liable for a stop and search and giving details over as they could think you are in some way related to the suspect

it maybe allow to take photo of subject as long as their face or any identifying features is hidden in the photo now i say this as im not too sure if this correct as if you watch lot late night tv or news when video or photo is shown of arrest, stop & search etc when police are involed the suspect face has been hidden.

oldbag · 27 Jun 2012 at 17:02

I was always wondering if I could take my SLR on the underground, take pics of stations, etc? AFAIK London Underground is private property....

D.P. · 27 Jun 2012 at 17:06

You actually can photograph children in public places, children playing on a park can result in some nice shots. Just be prepared for harassment from the parents.

Having model release forms is handy when selling your work through certain commercial avenues.

Even when you are on public land if you photograph something private you may have issues commercial. For example, although daytime photographs of the Eiffel tower don't require a model release, night time photos with the lights on do!

pecnarf · 27 Jun 2012 at 17:07

hmm think in the station might be problem but i wouldn't think so on the train.

D.P. · 27 Jun 2012 at 17:17

oldbag said:
I was always wondering if I could take my SLR on the underground, take pics of stations, etc? AFAIK London Underground is private property....

If the stations are private then you will need to seek permission.
Saying this I assume photos get taken all the time by tourists etc. with no one caring.

James J · 27 Jun 2012 at 17:27

D.P. said:
If the stations are private then you will need to seek permission.
Saying this I assume photos get taken all the time by tourists etc. with no one caring.

Need to ask either way as I know togs that have been stopped and searched for taking photos in train stations. Most tourists don't use DSLR's with hefty lenses and snap shots are quite hard to notice anyway in crowds.

Paul11 · 27 Jun 2012 at 17:47

isnt there some terrorism law regarding information collection, where they can ask to see your photos ?

if they suspect you have been taking sensitive photos

D.P. · 27 Jun 2012 at 17:51

James J said:
Need to ask either way as I know togs that have been stopped and searched for taking photos in train stations. Most tourists don't use DSLR's with hefty lenses and snap shots are quite hard to notice anyway in crowds.

If the station is public then you wont need permission forma legal standpoint but it would probably be in your best interest. Even if yuo have legal permission in a public place the police can still question you if they think there is a security threat.

pecnarf · 27 Jun 2012 at 17:56

Paul11 said:
isnt there some terrorism law regarding information collection, where they can ask to see your photos ?

if they suspect you have been taking sensitive photos

if you see my earier post there an link to the law selection in the photograph sticky thread, in that selection their a pdf on the terrorism law.

PoundforaBrown · 27 Jun 2012 at 18:05

If the answer you gave to account for yourself doesn't please the officer. They may ask to view your photographs. (This is where you can get a bit pedantic in what I am saying) The police have no power to view images except under Section 43 of the terrorism act otherwise they can't force you to. Again you are not OBLIGED to show them. ( I on the other hand show them a few pics and talk about bokeh and be quite technical with them. This usually confuses them and they will be satisfied)

If you truly value your privacy and you decide not to show them your photographs this is now going into the Stop and Search category.

The police can stop and search any person, however, before they stop and search they must have reasonable grounds for suspecting that they will find for example stolen goods, weapons or drugs.
Before a search they must or you should first retrieve information by asking:

what they think they might find when they search you.

the reason for the search.

the police officer's name and police station.

A police search can be very frustrating, just remain calm and polite. Remember you do have rights even in a stop and search. They must supply you with these answers for reason of searching you.

There is no power for the police to stop or detain a person in order to find grounds for a search.

If you are searched, they must or if its not appropriate to do so give you a record of the search. At no time are you OBLIGED to give them your name, address, date of birth. If they don't find anything during a search you must be told you are free to go. If not, ask them "Am I free to go?"

Andy90 · 27 Jun 2012 at 18:08

pecnarf said:
also in regard for when out ands about photo of cars i think you required if displaying in public to hide the number plate of the car or any vehicle that in the photo but think if it isn't required it still a good idea to do it out of courtesy for the owner.

There is no law that requires you to do this per se, there may be a court order in place that might prohibit you from identifying persons/cars, but nothing in any Criminal law.

PoundforaBrown · 27 Jun 2012 at 18:18

When it comes to Byelaws in certain parts of London for example Parliament Square or St James's Park, you are free to photograph if you are doing it without commercial purpose.

I've heard a lot of storys about GLA officers saying "you can't photograph here" they are wrong. Ask to see the bye laws, if its against the law they must provide you with that information.

Nexus · 27 Jun 2012 at 18:52

D.P. said:
Having model release forms is handy when selling your work through certain commercial avenues.

I was reading up on some of that recently.

From what I gathered, if you take a photo of a street scene which might feature people in the background, on land you are allowed to, you could do what you like with it.

If however you took say a street candid which featured a person as the main subject, if you intend to sell it or use it commercially, you would have to get them to agree to it and sign a release, as its the same as using a model.

Andy90 · 27 Jun 2012 at 18:55

PoundforaBrown said:
If the answer you gave to account for yourself doesn't please the officer. They may ask to view your photographs. (This is where you can get a bit pedantic in what I am saying) The police have no power to view images except under Section 43 of the terrorism act otherwise they can't force you to. Again you are not OBLIGED to show them. ( I on the other hand show them a few pics and talk about bokeh and be quite technical with them. This usually confuses them and they will be satisfied)

If you truly value your privacy and you decide not to show them your photographs this is now going into the Stop and Search category.

The police can stop and search any person, however, before they stop and search they must have reasonable grounds for suspecting that they will find for example stolen goods, weapons or drugs.
Before a search they must or you should first retrieve information by asking:

what they think they might find when they search you.

the reason for the search.

the police officer's name and police station.

A police search can be very frustrating, just remain calm and polite. Remember you do have rights even in a stop and search. They must supply you with these answers for reason of searching you.

There is no power for the police to stop or detain a person in order to find grounds for a search.

If you are searched, they must or if its not appropriate to do so give you a record of the search. At no time are you OBLIGED to give them your name, address, date of birth. If they don't find anything during a search you must be told you are free to go. If not, ask them "Am I free to go?"

This is quite a poor explaination of the law and a bit of a mishmash of three different powers.

The main tool for the Police to stop and search people comes from Section 1 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984.

When carrying out a search Officers should identify themselves, give the grounds for the search, what they are searching for, their name and station, the legal power they are using and the fact that the person is being detained for the search (since you can use reasonable force to conduct a legal search).

Section 43 of the Terrorism Act 2000 is the one where Police Officers can stop and search a person whom he reasonably suspects to be a terrorist to discover whether he has in his possession anything which may constitute evidence that he is a terrorist (this clearly can include Camera/Video Recorders/Mobile phones/Maps/Plans etc.). Officers can under this power examine images on any recording device.

Section 23 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 is the power whereby if a constable has reasonable grounds to suspect that any person is in possession of a controlled drug in contravention of this Act or of any regulations made thereunder, the constable may:

search that person, and detain him for the purpose of searching him

search any vehicle or vessel in which the constable suspects that the drug may be found, and for that purpose require the person in control of the vehicle or vessel to stop it

seize and detain, for the purposes of proceedings under this Act, anything found in the course of the search which appears to the constable to be evidence of an offence under this Act.

You are correct with your statements - Remember you do have rights even in a stop and search. There is no power for the police to stop or detain a person in order to find grounds for a search (those grounds must be there prior to the stop). You're also right in stating that Officers must identify themselves, the powers used, the object of the search etc.

If searched a written record of the search must be provided or if not practicable to give you a copy then and there, they should tell you where you can obtain a copy (usually the Officers station)

As for talking technical stuff about photography claiming this will confuse and satisfy them, I really do hope you don't meet me on Patrol since I'll more than happily discuss photographic techniques with you.......

PoundforaBrown · 27 Jun 2012 at 19:12

Andy90 said:
This is quite a poor explaination of the law and a bit of a mishmash of three different powers.

The main tool for the Police to stop and search people comes from Section 1 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984.

When carrying out a search Officers should identify themselves, give the grounds for the search, what they are searching for, their name and station, the legal power they are using and the fact that the person is being detained for the search (since you can use reasonable force to conduct a legal search).

Section 43 of the Terrorism Act 2000 is the one where Police Officers can stop and search a person whom he reasonably suspects to be a terrorist to discover whether he has in his possession anything which may constitute evidence that he is a terrorist (this clearly can include Camera/Video Recorders/Mobile phones/Maps/Plans etc.). Officers can under this power examine images on any recording device.

Section 23 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 is the power whereby if a constable has reasonable grounds to suspect that any person is in possession of a controlled drug in contravention of this Act or of any regulations made thereunder, the constable may:

search that person, and detain him for the purpose of searching him

search any vehicle or vessel in which the constable suspects that the drug may be found, and for that purpose require the person in control of the vehicle or vessel to stop it

seize and detain, for the purposes of proceedings under this Act, anything found in the course of the search which appears to the constable to be evidence of an offence under this Act.

You are correct with your statements - Remember you do have rights even in a stop and search. There is no power for the police to stop or detain a person in order to find grounds for a search (those grounds must be there prior to the stop). You're also right in stating that Officers must identify themselves, the powers used, the object of the search etc.

If searched a written record of the search must be provided or if not practicable to give you a copy then and there, they should tell you where you can obtain a copy (usually the Officers station)

As for talking technical stuff about photography claiming this will confuse and satisfy them, I really do hope you don't meet me on Patrol since I'll more than happily discuss photographic techniques with you.......

I know it's a bit of a mishmash. I just wanted to start a discussion for photographers to use and maybe use as a guide. I was welcoming people to write what they know about or have any experiences that could help out the everyday snapper and it's great info that you posted.

On the contrary I actually really hope that I see you on patrol. I'd love to have a chat with you about photography.