Plastic makes me a sad panda

[Lil old me]

Recently I have become a bit of an environmental convert. After spending 2 weeks sorting out my parents' loft of all the rubbish they have accumulated I found myself thinking, "no way do they need all this stuff". Since then I have started reading and researching about the environment and how I can be less wasteful.

I've done various small things, using the car a lot less, switching to Soya milk, halving my meat consumption, but today I had my eyes truly opened by two blogs about the evil that is plastic.http://plasticmanners.wordpress.com/ and
http://fakeplasticfish.com/. Both blogs are of people trying to dramatically cut down their plastic use, from refusing straws at cantines, to buying a toothbrush made out of boar hair!

Plastic really is everywhere but it is a poison. Its creation pollutes and its existance pollutes. Even when it is disposed of after the shortest of moments it will remain forever. That little plastic spoon, the cupholder, the little table you sometimes get in a pizza box. All of those will exist forever after they have been used.

I dont want to be preachy, but reading those blogs really has changed my view on the world. So if you care about your planet at all give them a look for a minute. Maybe refuse that straw next time, or take your own bag, or even track how much you use for a week or two. If we all used and wasted just that little bit less, the results could be staggering.

 

[Lil old me]

Hippy.


Though using less plastic is great, packaging is the worst offender.

Halving meat consumption and eating soya beans though - back to my first reaction.

First post deleted? moderation is getting a little extreme.

Your knee jerk is totally expected and understandable. If I had read this post even a month ago I would have done the same. Though I ask you just to try some soya milk, just once, just to see if you like it. My girlfriend actually prefers it to dairy milk and my parents didnt know the difference on their cereal.

As for meat, dont get me wrong, I love a nice big juicy steak. I cook all the time and would hate to lose all my meat. But I have started substituting half of my meals with a quorn alternative meat or no meat at all. Again, I implore you to just buy some and try it. Quorn ham slices are really tasty in a toastie and quorn chicken is impossible to differentiate in a curry. Honestly, just try it, it won't hurt and you may be pleasantly surprised.

However I have today come to realise they do indeed come packed in plastic. Going to have to think about that one! But its early days.

If rocks & stones eventually degrade into sand then buried plastic will erode to nothing purely by abrasion so' last forever' is a myth

Err, if rocks and stones erode into...sand (essentially very small stones)....then plastics, erode into, very small plastics? Forever or not, thousands of years is still plenty for an infinite number of birds/whales/dolphins to starve from eating them.

You crazy hippy, NO think about the boars...

I never said I have a mental toothbrush, but the blogger did. Not sure how it got made, the link wouldnt work for me.

So the OP is advocating that we wear real fur too? As "faux" fur is acrylic which is plastic.

Or dont wear fur at all because it looks awful?

 

[Lil old me]

"infinitesimal" means not very many!

Eugh, its late

The problem isn't the plastic, it's the disposal of it. It needs to be buried or recycled, if it's dumped into the sea, it will create a mess, what do expect?

Im afraid you're missing the point. Not all plastics can be recycled, and even the ones which can leave a toxic waste product. Also most plastics are 'downcycled' so they have to be used for something less than originally, like copier paper becoming loo roll. This reduces their utility.

Some dumping in the sea is unavoidable simply because it will get caught in surface run off (even if it is buried, soil erosion will catch up eventually), or will be consumed by birds who end up by the sea.

Also the plastics were talking about here get used for such a short amount of time and are seen as so insignificant (thinking of spoons or wrappers) they will often simply be disregarded and not be considered for recycling by most people.

 

[Lil old me]

It can and is buried. Soil erosion? What are you talking about? Soil isn't just going to disappear like that, it's fine.

Loose apples come in cardboard boxes, some people may want them in a polythene bag, and that's consumer choice.

If the croissants weren't in a plastic tray, they would get slightly squashed and people wouldn't buy them, people are fussy.

Its not fine. Just because it is buried obviously doesnt just make it right. Soil wears down over time and depending where the landfill is located some of the buried material could be revealed. That is assuming parts of the plastic dont begin to break down into the soil which releases severely toxic chemicals into the soil and therefore into the water supply.

On the croissants, this is exactly the fussiness im trying to fight. If people really knew the damage they were doing I dont think they would be as fussy.

Also much of it isnt buried or incinerated much of it is sent to China!

Outsourcing plastic wastes

But what really happens to the plastic packaging and bottles that the British consumer diligently places in the recycling bin for collection by the local authorities, and, more so, those that supermarkets, the biggest users, are supposed to be responsible for recycling?

It turns out that more than a third of the waste paper and plastic collected by British local authorities, supermarkets and businesses for recycling have been sent 8 000 miles to China [8]. Exports to China are running at 200 000 tonnes of plastics rubbish a year. UK’s supermarket chains, some of the largest generators of plastic packaging waste in Britain, are getting their recycling done in China. Environmental groups and Members of Parliament were shocked at the scale of the trade. No studies have been done on the environmental costs of shipping wastes to China.

 

[Lil old me]

Who the **** are you to tell people what they can and can't wear because you like or dislike the look of it?
I made a valid point and all you can say is that... Pffff rubbish

BYW, my wife's fur coat looks great and is better for the environment than your plastic alternative.

I wasnt going to bother to reply to this since you feel that swearing is a helpful way to argue, but I will rise to the bait. If you actually read what I post you'd see I never said people shouldnt be allowed to wear fur. You brought up the fact that plastic alternatives are clearly as bad, if not worse, given my OP.

In my opinion fur does look awful, but that comment as intended as tongue in cheek anyway, though clearly if people didnt buy fur then there would be no need to find a replacement for it? Its good that you are buying from what sounds like a sustainable source, however I'm not sure its really you (or your wife) the likes of ALF are targetting. The fashion industry, which is massive compared to your single usage, almost certainly does waste life just for fur. While for me its not a massive issue, as it seldom applies to me, and most of my ecology is an attempt to change my personal usage I see the problem with mass farming for fur and hope you could too, without me telling you how to live!

You seem to have it in your head that I'm a massive hippie nutter, going by your comments in your original post. No i dont wear hemp (well, not yet ), Im just a normal 22 yr old guy, I get drunk, I go out, I have friends, I dont live in a cave and I even have a car! The point im trying to make here is how much plastic we really waste. The plastic bag which took maybe a few hours to make, which most people use once, but which exists afterwards for maybe a few thousand years. That bag is just unnecessary. The pollution it made is, unnecessary. The life it might destroy, an unnecessary loss. These blogs arent really about the plastic coat, or about the computer Im typing on, with plastic keys. They are about the throwaway items which really do not need to exist.

If you do decide to post again, I think it would be better if you thought about it before you typed.

So, what exactly have you achieved through this? :/

Every little helps. I'm just one person, I cant stop tescos selling meat (nor would I try!) but for me to only buy meat for dinner in a week, rather than potentially breakfast, lunch and dinner. Well thats at least 50% of my meat purchasing down. If everyone did it, then it would show in the sales figures and supply would adjust to it. Im just one person but its a start.Also it is much cheaper and I find myself eating much healthier alternatives instead.

What amazes me is how much plastic is wasted by making pieces of trash toys / gimics that will be thrown away 5 minutes later

I can't remember the link but the blog about the worst polluted areas in china really made me realise how much we're destroying this world, not that im doing anything to help mind....

EXACTLY! Finally someone gets the point! The whole idea of this post was not a rant about vegetarianism. Im not one. Nor was it really a rant about plastics we use for things we use for a long time ie computers. It is about getting people to think, do i really need this straw? I drink most of my drinks fine without it, and ill only throw it away in 5 minutes. No, I wont have a straw thank you. If everyone did that?! Well the Pacific Rubbish Patch might just be that bit smaller.

I strongly advise you to do more research into the deletrious effects of soya consumption. Almond milk is a much healthier alternative, rice and oat milk are also worthy of consideration.

I wasnt actually aware of this but thank you for the info. I have been drinking Alpro soya and according to my little bit of reading they are one of the "better" producers. Never buying from ex-rainforest land etc. Might look up alternative milks next time I do a shop though. The trick is getting one the gf likes as she hates dairy but now loves soya!

Last year or two I've started to shop a lot more locally, using the local greengrocers, using the local butchers etc. It's cheaper, tastier, travelled less miles and we have more say over how it's produced and packaged. No ecomentalist blogs required to tell me that's a good thing.

This is great although it isnt always an option for everyone.My gfs village has 3 butchers and 2 green grocers, good old Suffolk, so its really a no brainer! On the other hand Harpenden, where my parents live, doesnt have any greengrocers and only 1 butcher (who they and I do use when he has the stock in). You probably dont need any ecomentalist blogs, no. But I try not to preach to the converted. Especially when im mental apparently.

 

[Lil old me]

they allready exsisted in some kind of form, you cant create mass. argument invalid. also why are you eating less meat, its good for you and tastes nice and were not making anything "die out" so to speak. i had kangaroo the other day and it was very nice like a odd taste on the outside but the inside was tender and like fillet steak. stop being a moron theres no such thing as global warming and if you sleep with a girl your not going to get hiv as the media would protray.

They did already exist, but in the form of oil, underground, locked away, "buried" as it were, having done so for millions of years. Making that oil into plastics created pollution, it unlocked the poisons within the oil and allowed them to enter the food chain, water supply or air. To use an analogy, tobacco grows. The plant the leaves come from wasnt made by man, it existed in some form. However due to process and alteration, that leaf is made into a cigarette. The cigarette is smoked and the harm it does is felt by the individual. How can you possibly say just because something exists it can do no harm? EVERYTHING already exists, doesnt mean it cant be harmful now because of changes we make to it.

Meat is good for you, i agree. I havent stopped eating it, I never said I had. However producing meat does massively affect animal welfare. It does produce something like a FIFTH of all Co2 emissions. It does lead to deforestation, overfarming does damage the soil and the way livestock are bred does lead to the proliferation of disease and weakening of animal immune systems, making things like Avian and swine flu much more easily spreadable and, arguably allows them to exist in the first place.

Humans are not meant to eat meat every day, we don't need it and biologically we are not actually built to consume as much of it as we do. I havecut my consumption because I dont believe I need to eat as much of it as I was. Is there any need to have a beef stir fry when a vegetable one tastes just as good and is better for you?

No idea where your comments about HIV came from, but i suppose they're meant to cast me in the guise of a hippie again, or a crazy keyboard warrior who never talks to people or has relationships. When you're done with the stereotypes and personal attacks feel free to post back and maybe we can have an intelligent discussion.

 

[Lil old me]

Do you not think how heavily processed those quorn substitutes must be in order to taste like chicken or ham? When in fact you could just eat fresh unprocessed chicken or ham.

I cant really find any evidence that it is any more processed than meat is. Of course it is not perfect, nothing is perfect. However it is clearly better than growing meat industrially.

BS!

Quorn has no texture and simply falls apart in your mouth, especially after being used for a curry :/


Oh well - for every cow you don't eat I shall eat 3!

This simply wasnt my experience. Obviously it doesnt need to be cooked as long as real chicken, perhaps this is where you went wrong? Of course there IS a difference, but not a massive one in my opinion.

hahah indeed im now x4ing my meat consumption currently have a whole rack of cow ribs in the oven XD

Thats up to you.

 

[Lil old me]

First off thanks for all the replies so far, nice to see weve got a discussion going now

It is grown in a huge vat of oxygenated nutrional broth and then shaped to the right dimensions, flavour is also added if necessary. As opposed to decent steak, which is cut from a cow, grilled for 8 minutes and served with a bit of peppercorn sauce. Quron is 100% manufactured so of course it is going to be more processed than meat. Do you even know how it produced?

I wasnt aware that this is how its produced, no. However i probably could have guessed, i mean im not naive enough to think it grows in those nice ham flavoured circles on a tree somewhere I am struggling to see a major problem with this though. Indeed pollution will be created by processing the quorn in a factory but I seriously doubt it would parallel the pollution created by a cow in its life time, if you factor in all the fertilisers used to grow the food it eats etc etc.

In my opinion, merely seeing meat production as the 'end product' ie what it takes to turn living cow into a tasty steak, rather than what had to happen to get that cow to that state in the first place, completely negates the vast majority of the damage done in the production/growing process. Yes a steak does not require a factory, however it does require a calf to be born and raised and fed and watered and grazed and finally to be processed in some manner (albeit a much less chemical process driven one). It also takes much much longer to grow a cow than it does to produce a fungus, thus increasing the damage caused. Furthermore, this ignores any animal welfare issues completely, something which does not bother me as much as the environmental damage, but surely something which must be considered.

Surely the best solution is to recycle as much as is possible. That way we can change our wasteful ways more slowly, and have less of an environmental impact. How recyclable are all types of plastic? I imagine almost anything can be recycled with the right facilities.

Of course this is ONE PART of the solution but it cannot be a solution it itself. Whenever plastics are recycled there is a toxic waste product left behind. The size of this varies between plastics, however it can seldom be completely eradicated. Surely it would be better not to make the thing in the first place, then we wouldnt need to recycle it! Also we all have to admit that sometimes we simply throw stuff that can be recycled away, into the rubbish, into the landfill. However if we changed our habits,for example we took a flask rather than buying bottled water, then we would negate this issue. Finally, this also ignores plastics which cannot be recycled, or which require such specialized facilities that they are recyclable in theory, but seldom in practice. Increase the facilities i hear you say. Well yes, but this might simply not be economically feasible and would interfere with peoples' lives far more than a habit change. Simply changing habits would be far cheaper, fairer and more effective.

Hahahah, the usual suspects spouting the usual uninformed or misinformed garbage


The energy and resources in a paper bag are higher than those that go into a plastic bag. Although a plastic one won't biodegrade or oxo-degrade unless it has certain additives it is the better option, environmentally. If it's re-used then it's even better again. Use it as a binbag and it's even better.

Sadly true. There are scores of lifecycle analyses backing this up.

I removed your signing comment since I'm not a hippie but probably know a lot more about the subject than most

This is interesting, thanks. Again it reiterates what I have been saying really. The culture and habits of people need to change to make a difference. A paper bag (even if it was less wasteful than plastic) merely falls into the "use once, throw away" culture which does so much damage. We need to reuse or not use at all, rather than finding different ways of consuming too much. Unbleached Cotton shopping bags all the way!

 

[Lil old me]

Surely if you factor in all the fertilisers used to grow food for the cow/bull etc then to have a fair comparison you must also account for the same fertilisers used to grow food for the people who work in the Quorn factory?

(Yeah really really picky but hey, I'm bored )

Well yea if you want. But then you have to factor in the farmer who rears the cows, his labourers, the butcher, lorry driver etc etc etc, you can go on forever! It might be interesting to see how many people actually work to produce a kilo of quorn versus a kilo of steak and do a comparison that way but i have no idea how you'd go about it.

If you look at it logically then theres no point whatsoever in Quorn.

If you want something that looks and tastes like meat then eat meat.

We've already established that both processes are wastefully inefficient in production of the final product.

If you don't want to eat meat then don't eat it.

Therefore a single meat producing process thus halving the environmental impact. Simples.

Proof that hippies are killing the planet by their unnatural urges.

Awful lot of assumptions in this post.

If you want something that looks and tastes like meat but doesnt have any of animal welfare issues then eat quorn.

We've already established that both processes are wastefully inefficient in production of the final product but we have no actual figures, just assumptions that because its an industrial process it must be extremely environmentally damaging. Yoghurt is essentially processed but i dont hear many people complaining about that!

As for the rest of it, read my OP. I do still eat meat. I love meat and ive just started this journey. Eventually the aim might be to do away with quorn, however for now even a meat substitute is better than no meat. At least quorn is produced in this country, bringing the food miles down.


A general note to everyone though. The semi vegetarianism was never the point of this post, i can see now why the writer of fake plastic fish created a separate vege blog rather than combining it with her hatred of plastics. The point was to tell people about plastics and try and give some people ideas on how to reduce their usage, as well as to show people the damage they do. Perhaps this link will help:

These photographs of albatross chicks were made in September, 2009, on Midway Atoll, a tiny stretch of sand and coral near the middle of the North Pacific. The nesting babies are fed bellies-full of plastic by their parents, who soar out over the vast polluted ocean collecting what looks to them like food to bring back to their young. On this diet of human trash, every year tens of thousands of albatross chicks die on Midway from starvation, toxicity, and choking.

To document this phenomenon as faithfully as possible, not a single piece of plastic in any of these photographs was moved, placed, manipulated, arranged, or altered in any way. These images depict the actual stomach contents of baby birds in one of the world's most remote marine sanctuaries, more than 2000 miles from the nearest continent.

~cj, Seattle, October 2009

http://www.chrisjordan.com/current_set2.php?id=11

 

[Lil old me]

From the previous page:

Hahahah, the usual suspects spouting the usual uninformed or misinformed garbage


The energy and resources in a paper bag are higher than those that go into a plastic bag. Although a plastic one won't biodegrade or oxo-degrade unless it has certain additives it is the better option, environmentally. If it's re-used then it's even better again. Use it as a binbag and it's even better.

Sadly true. There are scores of lifecycle analyses backing this up.

I removed your signing comment since I'm not a hippie but probably know a lot more about the subject than most

Basically its better to reuse plastic, or even better to use unbleached cotton bags than to simply throw away paper.

 

[Lil old me]

Except it isn't does it. Quorn tastes bland and plastic, ironically enough.

Not to my tastebuds. Quorn chicken curry made from scratch (I never ever buy jars of sauce) tasted loads better than a ready meal. Yes the texture was different but chicken is fairly tasteless anyway and in a curry you're letting the spices do the work far more than the meat flavour. Of course I know there are exceptions to this and I'd never buy quorn steak but for me it is a fairly tasty alternative!

This highlights a problem I often find with environmental issues. People always see alternatives or changes in black and white. If I say oh ill half the amount of meat I eat, people say, well why dont you go the whole way then? Or id never ever give up my meat! Or when you say I recycle more, or buy less plastics people react with, but it cant all be recycled, theres no point anyway or I cant live without my laptop/tv/car dashboard. Look people, its not about changing everything 100%, its about making small changes which have the potential to make a BIG difference! You dont have to do away with all pollution or with all meat or with all plastics. Im sensible enough to realise all of these things are an unfortunate but NECESSARY part of modern life. I accept that you cant simply eradicate plastic or pollution but that does not mean you cant reduce it slightly.

 

[Lil old me]

By tasteless i mean relative to a steak or lamb in a curry. To me spices in a curry have far more flavour than the chicken itself. I wouldnt use quorn chicken if i was only trying to do a chicken breast, but in a strong sauce it makes little difference.