Please point out the flaws in this argument

pogo · 10 Apr 2006 at 01:40

OK, this is probably going to be really long-winded, and I'll no doubt make it more complicated than it needs to be but I'll have a go anyway.

Suppose you have gone out for the night to see a hypnotist. The show (which let's say started at 8pm) is around 2 hours long, and right at the very end, he calls you up and puts you into a hypnotic state. He tells you that when he snaps his fingers, you will open your eyes but will have no memory of the evening.
When he snaps his fingers, you come out of the state with absolutely no memory of what happened. Effectively the last 2 hours of your life have been erased. You were fully conscious for the whole day up until you were hypnotised, but because you now have no memory of the last 2 hours, it is as though they never existed (from your point of view). There won't simply be a gap in your memory (such as remembering being conscious, but not being able to recall anything that happened), so as far as you know, it is still 8pm (or just after).

Now suppose the hypnotist had said that when he snaps his fingers, you will have no memory of anything that had ever happened in your life. Would your life pretty much start from the moment he snaps his fingers, because you have no memory of anything previous?

Now suppose that when we die, there is nothing and we simply cease to exist. When that happens, our entire memory is essentially erased. Surely if that was the case, we would have no present memory of being fully conscious at this very moment? Does that mean there is some form of afterlife, where our memory is preserved?

There you go; it shouldn't take too long to pick holes is that

PardonTheWait · 10 Apr 2006 at 01:46

wtf

if this hypnotist can mess about with your mind, then he can.

It doesn't mean you didn't exist for two hours. It just means he stole it.

Disclaimer: If I have misread or misunderstood your post, it's because I'm a little drunk.

SideWinder · 10 Apr 2006 at 01:46

Having problems sleeping?

Morlan · 10 Apr 2006 at 01:48

A hypnotist can't wipe your whole memory, nor can he make you commit suicide. Saw it on the telly once!

SpicyDuck · 10 Apr 2006 at 01:51

The "click" of his fingers can be used as a metaphor for death.

When life finally clicks it's fingers, only then will you cease to exist.

Besides, a hypnotist is just playing with your mind but dying is switching the mind off. It will eventually rot and all memories will be scattered, torn and thrown about all over the world in other forms of energy and existence.

Now, if we could gather EVERY part of a dead persons brain from all over the world, no matter where or what it is, then piece it back together and remould it into it's former self; maybe we could bring someone back to life.

But that's extremely far-fetched and will never happen, in my non-scientifically-educated opinion.

Phil.

Inquisitor · 10 Apr 2006 at 01:52

pogo said:
Surely if that was the case, we would have no present memory of being fully conscious at this very moment?

There's the flaw. Why would it mean we have no present memory? Our memory hasn't been "erased" yet, as you put it.

Essentially, the memory up until a point in time is only relevant for that point in time.

Jonny ///M · 10 Apr 2006 at 01:53

I think they make you think,well full your mind or whatever into blocking it out. Like a traumatic event can do but if you really tried hard/were hypnotised or whatever it would still be there.

SourChipmunk · 10 Apr 2006 at 01:54

A hypnotist can only do what you believe he can do. However, in this situation, he would have had to control your entire life to erase it from your memory. If he had you under for 2 hours, he (if you're quite willing) can make it so you can't remember those 2 hours.

There are hypnotherapists who can help patients to recall, in detail, events that have plagued them in the past. I would think a better approach to therapy would be to erase those bad memories altogether but, as far as I know, that cannot be done.

pogo · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:02

Inquisitor said:
There's the flaw. Why would it mean we have no present memory? Our memory hasn't been "erased" yet, as you put it.

I know but because it is going to be erased it the future, it effectively already has been erased :confused:

that doesn't really make sense does it?

In the hypnotist situation, if you hadn't been called up to be hypnotised, you would still be able to remember the show. Everything happens exactly as before but the future events are different.
But if he hypnotises you, although you still saw the show, you have absolutely no memory of it, so to you, it never happened.

I know it's a stupid but for the purpose of this argument, let's just say that it is possible for the hypnotist to 'erase' your memory

Arcade Fire · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:07

I think that a more relevant question would be that if a hypnotist made you forget his entire show, do you have good grounds to claim your ticket price back?

Inquisitor · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:10

Well it seems a bit of an absurd proposition that has no real basis, which makes it rather difficult to disprove logically, to that level of detail. :confused:

You seem to suggest that what happens in the future takes effect now. How our memories appear to us is entirely irrelevant really, it only gets confusing if you try to take that literally.

Inquisitor · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:11

Arcade Fire said:
I think that a more relevant question would be that if a hypnotist made you forget his entire show, do you have good grounds to claim your ticket price back?

Exactly what I was thinking when I read the OP

Psyk · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:27

I think it's an interesting philosophical question. But it's not in any way a scientific one. There's been a few times I've had no memory of the previous night due to going way over the top with alcohol. It's weird hearing about the stupid things you did because as far as your concerned these things didn't happen, everything is just a complete blank.

freshy · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:30

this question is either incredibly deep or incredibly futile and pointless (and unasnwerable!)....

i have no clue how to articulate what i think to be honest

thinking something about the soul in my logic

SourChipmunk · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:33

Psyk said:
I think it's an interesting philosophical question. But it's not in any way a scientific one. There's been a few times I've had no memory of the previous night due to going way over the top with alcohol. It's weird hearing about the stupid things you did because as far as your concerned these things didn't happen, everything is just a complete blank.

Interesting thought. If I went to a hypnotherapist, could he bring back those four hours I was a complete jerk while stoned off my gourd on tequila? :confused:

Oh, the stories I've heard.

Inquisitor · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:35

freshy said:
this question is either incredibly deep or incredibly futile and pointless (and unasnwerable!)....

i have no clue how to articulate what i think to be honest

Bah, I know exactly what you mean.

ChroniC · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:43

I think the whole point he trying to get at is because your conscious etc etc theres an afterlife.

Simple answer no, your brain i suppose can be said to be similar to a computer, you exist in you brain hardwired like a bios. Conscious, like ram, and memory is hardrive.
When you die, you lose all the electricity in your body and your brain goes into shut down. With advances in technology i think we will be able to jump start this as long as the organs can sustain it, its just a case of time. If we never are able then maybe thats because something is missing. A soul perhaps.

pogo · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:50

OK, let's say you were at a party and got totally wasted, and the next morning you wake up with no recollection of what happened the previous night. When you try to run through the events, you skip straight from when your memories of the previous night end to when you woke up, as though the bit in the middle never really happened.

If when we die our memory is destoyed, even though it hasn't happened yet, our mind would try to skip ahead (from the point when our memory was lost) to a point when we become conscious again. But because we are dead we never reach that point. If that were the case, surely we wouldn't still be fully aware of being conscious at the present?

Well it made sense in my head

Kol · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:50

Morlan said:
A hypnotist can't wipe your whole memory, nor can he make you commit suicide. Saw it on the telly once!

My image of 'Dean Koontz - False Memory'' has just been well and truly shattered

/awesome book IMO.

ChroniC · 10 Apr 2006 at 02:58

pogo said:
OK, let's say you were at a party and got totally wasted, and the next morning you wake up with no recollection of what happened the previous night. When you try to run through the events, you skip straight from when your memories of the previous night end to when you woke up, as though the bit in the middle never really happened.

If when we die our memory is destoyed, even though it hasn't happened yet, our mind would try to skip ahead (from the point when our memory was lost) to a point when we become conscious again. But because we are dead we never reach that point. If that were the case, surely we wouldn't still be fully aware of being conscious at the present?

Well it made sense in my head

true, but the thing your fogetting is your subconscious. The thing thats there in the background. Otherwise sleeping would be like being born everyday.
Ive passed out and woke up in a completely diffferent place, It was like teleportation, i blinked and was in a different house. Now thats freaking weird, but its just because i lost memory nothing more.