Plumbing: Ghost flushing - Please help!

[RastaManBob]

Hi,

Following my previous thread relating to a faulty toilet inlet valve I got a plumber in to replace it. Since this I have noticed a minor issue (or two - not sure if they are related).

1) There is a constant small drip into the toilet bowl. Approximately one drip every three seconds.

2) The inlet valve opens up for a short time (less than five seconds) approximately once an hour.

Originally I assumed that the two problems were related. I guessed that the "leak" was probably a duff seal on the flusher valve and in turn the water level in the cistern was falling lower enough to trigger the inlet valve to open. As the drop would have been small the inlet only needed to open for a short time.

In order to verify this I did a basic test. I'm certainly not a plumber but I thought this made sense. I flushed the toilet to let the cistern fill to the fill line. I isolated the toilet using the service valve and left this overnight. I checked the water level in the morning (approximately seven hours later) to notice the cistern level had dropped by approximately one inch (off of the drop of my head - did not measure at the time and this was a few nights ago).

I expected that upon turning the service valve back on the inlet valve would open to fill the deficit. It did not, so I can only assume that the small amount of water lost was not sufficient to cause the inlet to open.

Remember, usually the inlet opens approximately once an hour. If the cistern water level had only dropped by a small amount in seven hours I cannot imagine that the amount by which it would drop in one hour would be sufficient for open the inlet valve, especially at a frequency of once an hour as is now usual.

This has lead me to believe, though I'd love to be straightened out if I am wrong, that issue 1) and 2) above are not related.

If this is the case I am not overly bothered by issue 1), if it is dropping by such a small amount it hardly seems an issue, and certainly the "lost" inch (over night) is not enough to reduce the performance of the flush. Typically the toilet would be used more frequently than once every seven hours anyway.

Issue 2) however does concern me. Why does the inlet valve need to open if no water is needed? The water level never seems to go higher than the cistern fill line and (considering that the water loss due to the trip) therefore I cannot understand why it turns on (or what it is doing). Initially I was concerned of the water wastage and the cost of keep filling up the cistern. Irrespective of this, the sound of the inlet opening once an hour (approximately) is getting very annoying. Living in only a one bedroom flat the bathroom is located near to the living room meaning it can be heard every time it opens up.

Can anybody advise what they think the problem may be? Any suggestions on how to proceed would be most appreciated.

I would like to avoid calling out a plumber as the cost seems prohibitive and I have yet to inform (and hence recover funds) from the landlady for the replaced inlet valve... I'd rather avoid having to get more work done and try to charge this to her as I cannot imagine it being an easy process. Likewise, calling the plumber seems problematic as he'd have to wait for up to an hour to see the "ghost flush".

Any ideas?

Thank you.

 

[Dickyb0b]

what do you mean by ghost flush lol..

 

[Lamo]

sounds like the valve that was put in the plumber is borked, I would have him back to change for a new one. Should be part of the same job.

 

[Django x2]

Firstly, this is a ROCA toilet right? Basically its an enclosed flush system. The float is sitting to high in the flush mech and water spills over the top of it and down the centre of the flush mech. The drips, overtime, cause the cistern water level to drop, hence the refill, and everlasting cycle, so infact, the two are related, but in a different way to the one you describe.

 

[diverse180]

The leaking into the bowl could be an idication of a fault with the syphon or maybe it's just not tightened enough / sealed properly to the cistern itself? (hence the slow leak).

When I was looking into "toilet problems" )) when I fixed my own loo I recall that leaking into the bowl could be caused by a split / faulty flapper valve.

I'm assuming you've tried googling your troubles? I found some pretty useful youtube videos when I fixed my own loo too...so it might be worth a look

 

[RastaManBob]

Thanks for the replies.

I really have no prior knowledge in this area... I've no idea what a ROCA is (a Google search seemed to suggest it was a brand?). It is a normal toilet with the cistern almost as a "back rest" if somebody was seated at the toilet (bad example I know).

The toilet uses a button flush.

I've had the cistern off when flushing the toilet and it does not *seem* to be leaking anywhere over the top of any level, etc.

There is no traditional "flapper" on the toilet and it seems there is no overflow pipe either. It has a cylindrical tube in the centre of the toilet (on the flusher) which I presume is used for overflow. I have not noticed any water going into this.

I do not remember the toilet constantly refilling (once an hour) before the new inlet was fitted, but I do recall the odd dripping though it did not seem as bad - Unless I simply was not "looking for it" unlike now.

I've checked a few websites but all of them seem to suggest the same things and require me to go tinkering a little beyond my comfort zone. I'll call the plumber eventually but as mentioned before, I'd rather avoid it for the hassle it will cause (with respect to the landlady).

If anybody else thinks they can identify the issues further I'd be really grateful to hear from you.

Cheers.

 

[RastaManBob]

Firstly, this is a ROCA toilet right? Basically its an enclosed flush system. The float is sitting to high in the flush mech and water spills over the top of it and down the centre of the flush mech. The drips, overtime, cause the cistern water level to drop, hence the refill, and everlasting cycle, so infact, the two are related, but in a different way to the one you describe.

Sorry for the double post, but querying this further:

Float sitting too high on the *flush mech*? Does the flush mech have any sort of float? I have not noticed this before and hence maybe this is something I've overlooked.

 

[the shadow]

sounds like its giving up the ghost to me

 

[Efour]

call a priest

 

[wonko]

For 1, is the 'leak' possibly an overflow (despite where the fill line is marked)? Does the drip continue if the isolation valve is closed and the cisten water level has fallen a bit below the normal fill line? If it is, then it suggests the inlet valve is leaking by the same amount as the drip.

For 2, could it be variation in water pressure that is causing the inlet valve to open? Or maybe if it's the overflow above that's somehow causing a partial siphon/flush every so often and causing a top-up. Is it regular enough to leave the lid off and wait for it to happen?

 

[RastaManBob]

For 1, is the 'leak' possibly an overflow (despite where the fill line is marked)? Does the drip continue if the isolation valve is closed and the cisten water level has fallen a bit below the normal fill line? If it is, then it suggests the inlet valve is leaking by the same amount as the drip.

It was still "leaking" after having closed the service valve (and the cistern level fallen by approx an inch) for about seven hours.

For 2, could it be variation in water pressure that is causing the inlet valve to open? Or maybe if it's the overflow above that's somehow causing a partial siphon/flush every so often and causing a top-up. Is it regular enough to leave the lid off and wait for it to happen?

It is approx once an hour so possibly regular enough but I'm not sure I'd "understand" what I was seeing at the speed it is all over and done by.

 

[Django x2]

Does it look like this?

 

[FlyingFish]

By the sounds of things the syphon (like pictured above) is passing water...which is why you have water running down the bowl/pan...Most 'torbec type' float vales (ball valve in old speak) do not fill like the old 'ball valves' used to. Modern plastic float valves only start to fill the cistern back up once they have dropped down an inch..

So in summary:

Syphon leaks water down into bowl
Float valve drops slowly with the loss of water
When float has dropped sufficiently it then tops the cistern back up
The cycle repeats

Mick (plumber)

 

[Al-Ectrician]

By the sounds of things the syphon (like pictured above) is passing water...which is why you have water running down the bowl/pan...Most 'torbec type' float vales (ball valve in old speak) do not fill like the old 'ball valves' used to. Modern plastic float valves only start to fill the cistern back up once they have dropped down an inch..

So in summary:

Syphon leaks water down into bowl
Float valve drops slowly with the loss of water
When float has dropped sufficiently it then tops the cistern back up
The cycle repeats

Mick (plumber)

SPOT ON

My guess, its a pushbutton syphon, probaly "Virquin", syphon washer passing.

 

[LOAM]

I had this in our push button siphonic flush loo when when we were in the flat and can confirm It was a passing siphon washer. You can buy a whole new device for about £5 from wikes if you want to be 100% on it.

 

[RastaManBob]

Does it look like this?

I've never removed it nor had a particularly good look over it (the part that was replaced last time, and took my attention, was the inlet valve). As far as I can tell though it does look the same. I don't remember seeing the blue bit but that is probably due to not looking for it. I'll check tonight and try and grab a photo or two.

By the sounds of things the syphon (like pictured above) is passing water...which is why you have water running down the bowl/pan...Most 'torbec type' float vales (ball valve in old speak) do not fill like the old 'ball valves' used to. Modern plastic float valves only start to fill the cistern back up once they have dropped down an inch..

So in summary:

Syphon leaks water down into bowl
Float valve drops slowly with the loss of water
When float has dropped sufficiently it then tops the cistern back up
The cycle repeats

Mick (plumber)

What is the syphon? On what part of the toilet is it, and what does it look like? Is the syphon the whole part, or some part, of what Lucero shows above?

If by the syphon you refer to the inlet valve then I'd have thought my test (as described in the OP) would have eliminated the problem, eg, turn off service valve so cistern is not refilled only to find very little water drop and a inlet that does not turn on immediately after opening service valve.

That said, it is a "Torbec" style (Fluid Master) so maybe that is relevant?

I had this in our push button siphonic flush loo when when we were in the flat and can confirm It was a passing siphon washer. You can buy a whole new device for about £5 from wikes if you want to be 100% on it.

As above: On what part of the toilet is it, and what does it look like? Is the syphon the whole part, or some part, of what Lucero shows above?

Is this easy to fit (without any plumbing knowledge or special tools required)? Can you please link to an example item on Wickes so I can see what it is?



Thanks to everybody that has replied. It seems many of you are in agreement with what the issue is, though I'm not sure I fully understand myself. Hopefully if I get some photos together maybe it'll be obvious what the issue is. Hope it is a simple fix!

 

[RastaManBob]

As promised, here are the photographs. I'm sorry that they're not brilliant but I found it hard to get any good shots inside the cistern. I have resized the pictures so that they are reasonable for the forum. If any larger ones are required I can upload/email the originals.

Initially I started with the cistern empty so that the photos were clearer.

Firstly, here is a general photo showing the two components - Inlet and flusher.

This is a closer shot of the flush valve. It seems similar but not the same to the one previously shown in this thread.

Here is an image of the inlet valve that has been recently installed by a plumber. It is a FluidMaster.

Finally, a general shot to show the water level. This is shown both against the flusher (I assume this is where the overflow is) and the cistern fill level mark. Worth noting is that I realised the plumber had the water level *slightly* higher than shown. Therefore I lowered it to that shown here.

I cannot verify that the toilet is still ghost flushing as I've only just taken the photographs and therefore not left enough time to see if this happens. The drip, however, remains. For the sake of this thread (and the likely outcome) lets assume that the ghost flush continues to happen. I'll update this thead to confirm either way in due course.

Hope the photographs help. Can any give any further advice on any basic tests to complete or what the problem may be (even if this means more tests/photos to confirm).

Thank you!

 

[FlyingFish]

White part: Syphon, grab it twist it....it comes off.. March off to merchants and demand a new one

Black bit: float valve, fills cistern...And thats about it, make sure it fills to the water level.

Easy as that, really!

Mick

 

[RastaManBob]

White part: Syphon, grab it twist it....it comes off.. March off to merchants and demand a new one

Black bit: float valve, fills cistern...And thats about it, make sure it fills to the water level.

Easy as that, really!

Mick

Thanks for the reply. Do the photographs in any way confirm (or otherwise) what you've mentioned previously in this thread? If so, what bit would I need to replace? The entire syphon?

My worry is I don't want to grab a new syphon and it is no different only to find it is the float valve. If it is the float valve I'd rather get the plumber back considering he fit that only a little over a week a go.

And, I'm still not sure if the two problems are definitely related?..

Thanks again!