Police 1 - Cyclists 0

[Freefaller]

I thought I'd share my experiences of yesterday which brought me great joy and a sense of justice.

I was waiting in a shop chatting to the owner whilst he did some paperwork. His shop front faces clapham road - for those of you who don't know, it is a rather busy road. Opposite his shop is a side street called stirling road. It's a residential side street off the main road. Now, parked out of the way, was a police BMW 5 series with 2 traffic cops stood outside of it.

Curious as to what they are doing there, I observe them from the shop, and simply the most incredible sight occured before me. They pulled in a cyclist! Then, 30s later - another! I didn't get it at first, but I then noticed that they had gone through the red light and that must have been why they were pulled over. The shop keeper and I now both engrossed, start talking about cyclists and sharing our disdain for them etc... he had lived in France, so we remeniced on the fact that in France you have to have a stamped badge (like a registration) on the bike - during our nostalgic reminicing, 2 more cyclists were pulled in. And by the looks on their faces, and receiving the piece of paper which looked very much like a fine - it was a moment where, were it not a glorious day of sunshine, the sun would have been shining in my day nonetheless.

I left the place drove to the junction where I was overtaken by a cyclist going through the light - I chuckled as I knew the outcome of this indescretion. Yep, he was pulled over!

I actually needed to turn onto stirling road as that's the way I get home, and slowly drove past the cops and the now increasing gaggle of cyclists, grinning... tempted to give a thumbs up or a wave, but thought it best I didn't tempt providence.

So yes, whilst not a really exciting story it was absolutely wonderful to see. Even more so was the look of disgust and anger on the cyclists faces.

Whilst I know we'll get a lot of cyclists saying "I never jump the lights" - I'd hazard a guess that in London, it's the minority that don't.

Waste of police resources? Not in my opinion. Cyclists always end up winning the "battle" (unless they die) between any skirmishes with cars - whilst I think controlling insurance and registration of cyclists would help lots, there's little that can effectively be done as let's face it, you have people of all ages using bikes - is it fair to fine kids? Then again should kids ride on the road at all?

I'm happy for this to open up as a debate - though we have had it recently. This was just me sharing my happy tale. It made my day it must be said - yes it is quite sad.

 

[Freefaller]

What's worse is the swarms of cyclists you get - you can't overtake because there is oncoming traffic so you have to drive at 10mph behind them as they wobble ahead of you.

Problem is as fun as it would be to crush 'em, it's always the driver's fault

 

[Freefaller]

How do police fine cyclist?
What stopping them from screwing the fine up and riding away. What happens if you got no ID on you, if i was a cyclist i would have just rode away but then again i wouldnt ride through red traffic lights.

Same as any other fine.

Failure to pay leads to court action or bigger fines, or both.

How is Sam?

Errr - I'm confused!

well that is don't swear. FF.. I jump red lights because often it means I don't have cars up my arse for the next mile or so. However I am a considerate light jumper - peds always get right of way and I never make cars stop or get worried when I do it.

And although Boris is going to allow cyclists to jump lights on left turns which is excellent this should NOT be implemented for cars. I doubt any car would stop to allow a pedestrian to cross and it would be very dangerous.

Jumping red lights is not safe. It's foolish, and you won't have a car "up your arse" if you're not in the way, keep to the side - no problemo! You should be 100% liable when you run a red, but ultimately it never seems to eb the case.

Turning left, just like turning right on red in the States works fine, pedestrians have absolute priority and the lights for pedestrians are phased independently as well. It works in america VERY well even in busy cities like New York, San Fran and LA where I've spent significant time as both a driver and pedestrian.

 

[Freefaller]

Same as any other fine.

Failure to pay leads to court action or bigger fines, or both.

What i mean is you dont have registration for a bike, and i dont carry id on me so i can get away with paying the fine.

More often than not people will have IDs on them. What happens if they don't then I'm not sure - I'm sure one of our fellow boys in blue will tell us. Anyway, even if not, then this brings into absolute contendment the need for registration stamps on bikes.

Complete waste of resources in my opinion.

How so? I'd much rather a pro-active police force than speed cameras and red light cameras and bus lane cameras that don't catch people's indescretions and blatant law breaking.

If this saves one cyclist his life by making him think twice, then it;'s a job well done.

I've seen over the past few years 3 cyclists get mowed down - one of which I had to be a witness in court. Every time it's been the driver's fault, even though it wasn't, purely owing to the fact that they are more vulnerable. Flesh and bones make very little odds vs over a tonne of car/bus/truck. Busses and Trucks in particular have caused numerous incidents, with loss of limbs, life and other serious injuries.

There is no education or recrimination for cyclists and this is a good way to start IMO. Road users are all contained within the laws of the road. You'd never actively run a red light in a car, or hop onto a pavement with a motorbike - why would you get away with it on a bike?

Sure there are "crimes" to be solved, but these were traffic cops - their duties are... on the road. So they are helping. If it was a CID or a panda car with regular officers in then I'd agree. However this road has seen a lot of accidents with cyclists getting knocked off their bikes - and then blaming the car drivers - or claiming with there's blame there's a claim type of attitudes etc...

 

[Freefaller]

Such as?

You realise traffic police deal with different issues (such as traffic) to the rest of the police force?

Jinx!

 

[Freefaller]

picture contains swearing. FF.

is that a swear word?

Severity

The relative severity of the various profanities, as perceived by the British public, was studied on behalf of the Broadcasting Standards Commission, Independent Television Commission, BBC and Advertising Standards Authority. The results of this jointly commissioned research were published in December 2000 in a paper called "Delete Expletives?". This placed "b" in eighth position in terms of its perceived severity, between "p" (seventh place) and "a" (ninth place). By comparison, the word "balls" (which has a similar literal meaning) was down in 22nd place. Of the people surveyed, only 11% thought that "b" could acceptably be broadcast at times before the notional 9pm "watershed"[3] on television (radio does not have a watershed).

It is on this forum yes.

 

[Freefaller]

Good way of discouraging cycling , silly French, what a stupid system.

Err - on the contrary cycling in France is very popular, and very safe as a result, and makes cyclists accountable and registered. It also makes it easier to identify the owner of the bike in case it's stolen, it also provides some liability cover for incidents, and since everyone that is a law abiding citizen does it, it works very well. So yes very silly indeed.

Had a nosey on Google Maps

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9905/samse.jpg

LOL! I had no idea it was called Sams! I've often gone in there for MOTs and car parts etc... never once noticed it!

 

[Freefaller]

Perhaps my comment was a bit premature, but, I have a few questions first:

1: Does it cost anything?
2: What's the case with kids below 12
3: What about vandalism ?
4: What about fraud/theft of them plates ?

But yes, it sounds like unneeded hassle and some people might just not bother and get a motorbike or car instead if you need to register the thing anyways... And yes, one of the advantages of cycling in the big city is not always having to wait for the lights...


No it isn't. it's 6 times less popular than here. ( according to this, but I haven't searched much I just clicked the first thing in google )
The link also shows that even while many cyclists ignore laws and police largely ignore them also, it has nothing to do with the actual safety...

Those stats are old, and if you see in the city stats, london doesn't even appear but Paris does, so it's not exactly consistent. Sure it's not as popular in the whole of France as France is over 2x bigger than the UK, but in the cities (Paris in particular) there is a lot of cycling maybe not as much as the UK, but it's popular nonetheless.

And you say advantage is that you don't have to wait for the lights? That's the point you DO have to wait for the lights, you cannot hop onto the pavement etc...

1. yes it's a nominal charge - I can't remember how much, but it's not prohibitive and it's part of the process - just like taxing your car is here.

2. I don't have that info to hand.

3. What about it?

4. same as any other registration document stolen.

 

[Freefaller]

1: Well then, that's exactly what I mean, cycling is supposed to be free, you buy a 2nd hand bike for 20-50€ and you can cycle for years. If it'd be taxed then I'd rather ride a moped.
2: I just can't see how it'd work with kids...
3: Well, as here with lights, bells, etc, the reg would be knocked off and the owner would have to pay to replace it .
4: Again, more hassle.


Cycling is popular here because it's a flat country with short travel distances and good cycle path infrastructure, but also because it's hassle free, you buy a cheapo bike, you cycle without ever paying anything, having to do anything, worry about traffic lights in non busy road conditions, etc...

Good cycle lane infrastructure?! You what?!

You really are making a mountain out of a molehill on this aren't you?

You should have to obey the highway code. Off-roading is one thing I agree with you though, you're free to do what you want etc... But if you're going to be on the road with paying road users you should either have to a) adhere to the rules or b) keep off them.

 

[Freefaller]

I shouldn't laugh but that line is just hilarious

I choose my words carefully

 

[Freefaller]

Bit shocked at the anti-bike sentiment here.

I ride to work every day and by far have more "incidents" on my bike than in my car, and I ride very defensively too. I don't break the law and ride briskly but sensibly. I use cycle lanes whenever possible.

Sure theres nobbish cyclists out there but we're not all bad. After all a serious prang for us usually ends up costing more than a repair bill.

As I said, there are always exceptions to the rule, just like me as a motorbike rider - I get grief from morons in cars, but unfortunately a lot of other young ignorant bikers ride their bikes badly and aggressively.

Snowdog, you have a very skewed aspect on life/the world and practicality - you'll grow up some day

 

[Freefaller]

This thread indicates why I hate cycling in this country, and places like Holland and Austria are so nice to be in.

1. Those other countries and most european countries a higher percentage of the population cycle.

2. The cycling infrastucture is a joke, give cyclist separation from traffic that what they want thats that drivers want. Again go to Holland makes our system look pathetic.




Oh nice one. Take it if was brother, sister, mum, dad, son, daughter, nephew, niece....... you would want them to be on the same road as drivers with that attitude?

I agree cycling in this country is not good because we haven't got a decent way of doing it and because the rules are too open to abuse and people don't do it properly. In holland and elsewhere they stop for traffic lights, they have their own cycle lanes WITH traffic lights - they have added special lanes ONLY for them, and not for pedestrians etc... if we had the same system, it would be fine.

As for the last one, what attitude? :/ Being on the road is a dangerous place - and it was a bit of a flippant but tongue in cheek comment. Get over yourself.

 

[Freefaller]

Firstly riding two abreast is perfectly legal according to the highway code, any more than this though is not allowed. We allways ride two abreast on the roads as it means drivers more often give the required distance to pas us and makes them think twice about ridiculous manouvers. Also according to the highway code a pssing car should allow the same space it would as if it was overtaking a car.

I find cyclists that jump red lights are attrocious, there is no excuse for it as we expect other road users to addere to the rules that also apply to us, what if a car jumped red lights and smacked the cyclist? I allways wait at the lights, if I am training and require a continuous uninhibited run with no stops then I go to one of the many stretches of road that are suitable or ones where there is a junction that only required a brief stop.

I don't like the anti-cycling sentiment that seems to allways crop us and I think it is likely a minority of cyclists, or also the large number of new cyclists who have no idea of the rules etc that are giving the rest of us a bad name, I would like to think I am helpful and will indicate if it is safe to pass to drivers behind or move out of the way so long as it doesnt mean I have to stop completely. Problem is I see a greater majority of drivers taking ridculous risks to get past, a large number of people who cannot understand that bikes can actually go very quickly and pull out or cut accross me at junctions causing me to often skid to a stop or now and again smack the side of their car. Also people who strive to overtake then immediately cut left at a junction, that 5 seconds whould have meant I wouldnt have had to brake suddenly!

The problem is with both sides, and often a lack of understanding of the rules that govern both road users, a bit of concideration from both sides can go a long way and also not breaking blatant rules that give other cyclists a bad name.

If everyone had your attitude that cycled in London I think this thread would never have been prompted as no one would have been caught jumping lights as there would not have been a need for the traffic cop to be there in the first place.

 

[Freefaller]

You'd have to be insane to think that any impact between a bike and a car can EVER come out in a cyclists favour. Car on car is reasonably fair odds but you are on an inherently unstable metal skeleton frame on a bike, any kind of impact means at the least, a crash with the ground at whatever speed you were moving at and with a car impact, the higher energy it can transfer with it's potential speed and mass can make it much worse. There's no energy absorbing shell around you on a bike.

Anyone who likes to moan about cyclists from the comfort of a car seat should try cycling a route every day which involves a right turn through least one non-traffic light 4+ exit roundabout in rush hour times. You obviously have no idea how crap being a cyclist among many impatient, fast accelerating and quite possibly oblivious to your presence cars can be. The lack of road presence on a pedal bike is dire at times.

Cyclists have a legal right to be on the road too and if the police catch them doing especially dumb moves which cause practical problems (I don't count internal ranting about harmless movement abuse as one) they should get done for it, I watch cars perform worse manoeuvres every day in rush hour. There's no policeman round every corner, it's down to road users to behave themselves with respect to other road users 99% of the time.

I am also a driver

Of course they'll come out worse, but if they are breaking the rules of the road and cycling like a complete **** and get knocked off their bikes why the **** should the drive be prosecuted? It's unfair and disgusting - for a start most people would feel horrendously guilty in spite of being innocent.

Look, I ride a motorbike, and I've had more than my moans about car drivers on here and between friends. However there is a simple difference. Motorbikes are faster than cars, bicycles aren't - bicycles are an obstacle on the road, motorbikes aren't... but anyway. If i get knocked off my motorbike for something I did wrong I don't expect to be let off... if I get knocked off by someone being a **** then if I surive, I expect that person to be done.

The reason the law needs to be tougher on bicycles is because the risk is significantly higher to the bike rider than to the car drivers. We need to protect the numpty car drivers who don't have my sort of observation skills for example (one you develop when you ride motorbikes) , from the cyclists that do ride badly and cause a danger to themselves.

I'm not out to castigate cyclists, I think that it's fine, and a great way of keeping fit - however, there has to be more control - as the number of cyclists increase, it's getting a little daft now in town. In fact on the A and B roads, you have less problems because generally there's less chance of them making a stupid mistake! Anyone can go to a shop and buy a bike and go one the road - no rules, training etc.... I'm not trying to suggest we clamp down on the freedom that cyclists have, but we have to come to a balance.

However i agree I see people getting away with murder on the roads doing stupid manoeuvers - let's just not add cyclists to those people. There are enough morons on the road.

 

[Freefaller]

You are joking surely ?

They are ignored as if they don't exist in many places, this is especially visible in Amsterdam where it's far worse than in other places.

Well everytime I've been (several hundred times), the cycle lanes have their own traffic lights that are timed with the main road. The number of cylist death in holland is low - so they must be doing something right.

 

[Freefaller]

Ones that dismount or ones that ride on the footpath? If they dismount, then what's the problem? If they ride on the footpath then they should have the book thrown at them.



Most cyclists are actually pretty good. Travel from Waterloo to Tower Bridge by car (or bike) one morning, or join the Embankment Peloton, and you'll see that the vast majority of cyclists are actually good about these things, it's jsut a minority that let us down.

I agree with teh first point - if they dismount, no problem.

The second point, well I notice just as many burning the lights rather than not - but I can appreciate the generalisation is possibly a little disproportionate. I ride a motorbike and we are typecast, yet we're not all the same.

However the point of the thread was just to share my evil joy at some justice taking place on those who think they can get away with it.

 

[Freefaller]

I'd rather not kill a cyclist by having one fly across the junction as I am. Even though it's his fault, I'll still get grief over it and also have to live with someone's death on my hands - I've seen enough of that for more than one liftetime.

They were traffic cops - their speciality is road/car/bike/vehicular based crimes and related misdemeanours. If they can drill it into a handful of people and stop them from doing it, and they save just 1 life as a result than IMO it's worth it.

I don't have anything against cyclists, I do have something against the cyclists that believe they are "untouchable".

Even if I knew I'd be 100% innocent and that I wouldn't have to deal with anything else, I still wouldn't want to knock over a cyclist.

Though I have been run into by a cyclist jumping the red lights: http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17918134&highlight=startername_Freefaller

So I guess I have a bit less sympathy for the situation.

 

[Freefaller]

Errr, what has that got to do with cyclists ignoring em ?

Err nothing, the thread has moved on.

Do keep up old chap.

 

[Freefaller]

Errr, what has that got to do with cyclists ignoring em ?

Well you did quote his post

Good point I kinda missed the answer to my own question!

Snowdog, my point is exactly that, because in holland they don't jump the lights and they have their OWN lanes with their OWN lights the deaths have decreased in spite of there being a higher percentage of cyclists there. They are enforced much more stringently. If they can do it why can't we keep to the rules here?