Soldato
- Joined
- 12 Sep 2012
- Posts
- 11,704
- Location
- Surrey
Thought i would start a new thread with a little more substance than the more recently common ones complaining about left wingers, right wingers, PC culture and such which usually ends with ' hurrr durr, lefties/righties are dumb-dumbs!'.
So this thread is about discussing primates and communication with people, mostly american sign language as they cannot produce human sounds. Furthering that, it is about discussing their place in the world morally.
For the inevitable response of TL : DR - Use to count primates as another animal. Some language experiments changed my view and question how we treat primates. See questions in bold at the bottom for discussion topic
Let me start off with saying that several years ago i use to refuse to believe that non humans had the ability to understand a language that had any semblance to our languages. I then saw some footage of several primate language experiments. Some seemed unsuccessful and showed little more than teaching a primate to react to words or signs similar to how you can train a dog or a bird to do tricks with operant conditioning. Some experiments however not only surprised me but changed how i viewed primates as it gave me a sense that some of these creatures manage to show understanding for a language and showed emotion, predictable but complex personality, their own sense of humour and feats of language intelligence such as the making of new words which previously did not exist in sign language, being able to use the same words to present either a question or a statement and talking about events that are either int he future/past or items which are currently not present.
These are the primates i saw footage and read about, ill link them to wiki rather than make an even bigger wall of text:
When i watched a lot of the footage and read up on researchers experiences, i couldn't help but feel some showed more 'person-hood' than others. Often the most surprising and incredible interactions of these creatures were as a result of unplanned events rather than set experiments. Such as Washoes reaction to being told why her trainer was gone for a few weeks Miscarriage) or Kokos request for a pet kitten on her birthday, where she was first given a realistic toy, then eventually real kittens of which she named. Kanzi's reaction to a haka was also incredible considering it was so different to the other bonobos that Kanzi lives with.
So, what do you think GD, do you think these experiments are just a touch above training a dog to sit or do they show signs of more going on?
If so, where does that place these creatures in terms of rights? Eg. many ended up in reserves or cages after becoming more intelligent and as a result seemed to express suffering in a way we could understand.
Do you know any incredible examples of primate intelligence that shows us the divide between them and us is not quite the same as us and other animals?
So this thread is about discussing primates and communication with people, mostly american sign language as they cannot produce human sounds. Furthering that, it is about discussing their place in the world morally.
For the inevitable response of TL : DR - Use to count primates as another animal. Some language experiments changed my view and question how we treat primates. See questions in bold at the bottom for discussion topic
Let me start off with saying that several years ago i use to refuse to believe that non humans had the ability to understand a language that had any semblance to our languages. I then saw some footage of several primate language experiments. Some seemed unsuccessful and showed little more than teaching a primate to react to words or signs similar to how you can train a dog or a bird to do tricks with operant conditioning. Some experiments however not only surprised me but changed how i viewed primates as it gave me a sense that some of these creatures manage to show understanding for a language and showed emotion, predictable but complex personality, their own sense of humour and feats of language intelligence such as the making of new words which previously did not exist in sign language, being able to use the same words to present either a question or a statement and talking about events that are either int he future/past or items which are currently not present.
These are the primates i saw footage and read about, ill link them to wiki rather than make an even bigger wall of text:
Washoe - Chimp
Arguably among the most successful and the first to teach a primate ASL. Very interesting finds including a bit of a crisis when Washoe met chimps for the first time and asked if she was like them rather than the humans she had spent life around. Went on to teach other chimps some signs at the reserve she ended up in.
NIM - Chimp
An attempt to repeat Washoes experiment but with a large amount of social interaction removed and replaced by a sterile lab environment. It is argued that the poor success of this experiment showed how vital social interaction was to development of language.
Chantek - Orangutan
He died yesterday and what made me think of starting a thread. Invented several ASL words himself and could do things such as refer to events which happened years previously.
Koko - Gorilla
Probably the most famous one. Brought up with plenty of social interactions and invented some ASL herself. Once communicated with Washoe which produced very interesting results. The fits animal to own a pet i believe (Kitten)
Kanzi - Bonobo
Not ASL but uses keyboard and characters to communicate. He picked up the language by observing his mother being taught when he was an infant and became the first Bonobo to do so, despite no direct teaching. Like Koko, he picked up an understanding for vocal language despite not being able to speak it.
Arguably among the most successful and the first to teach a primate ASL. Very interesting finds including a bit of a crisis when Washoe met chimps for the first time and asked if she was like them rather than the humans she had spent life around. Went on to teach other chimps some signs at the reserve she ended up in.
NIM - Chimp
An attempt to repeat Washoes experiment but with a large amount of social interaction removed and replaced by a sterile lab environment. It is argued that the poor success of this experiment showed how vital social interaction was to development of language.
Chantek - Orangutan
He died yesterday and what made me think of starting a thread. Invented several ASL words himself and could do things such as refer to events which happened years previously.
Koko - Gorilla
Probably the most famous one. Brought up with plenty of social interactions and invented some ASL herself. Once communicated with Washoe which produced very interesting results. The fits animal to own a pet i believe (Kitten)
Kanzi - Bonobo
Not ASL but uses keyboard and characters to communicate. He picked up the language by observing his mother being taught when he was an infant and became the first Bonobo to do so, despite no direct teaching. Like Koko, he picked up an understanding for vocal language despite not being able to speak it.
When i watched a lot of the footage and read up on researchers experiences, i couldn't help but feel some showed more 'person-hood' than others. Often the most surprising and incredible interactions of these creatures were as a result of unplanned events rather than set experiments. Such as Washoes reaction to being told why her trainer was gone for a few weeks Miscarriage) or Kokos request for a pet kitten on her birthday, where she was first given a realistic toy, then eventually real kittens of which she named. Kanzi's reaction to a haka was also incredible considering it was so different to the other bonobos that Kanzi lives with.
So, what do you think GD, do you think these experiments are just a touch above training a dog to sit or do they show signs of more going on?
If so, where does that place these creatures in terms of rights? Eg. many ended up in reserves or cages after becoming more intelligent and as a result seemed to express suffering in a way we could understand.
Do you know any incredible examples of primate intelligence that shows us the divide between them and us is not quite the same as us and other animals?