Problem with a dealer bought car (2016 updated for 2020)

Malt_Vinegar

Malt_Vinegar

Malt_Vinegar

Don
Joined
20 Oct 2002
Posts
17,173
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In a house
Hi Guys,

Bought a car from a small dealer. Described as "Perfect car, Truly Mint".
e65 750i with 50,000 miles and F BMW SH

It appears to have a problem with worn valve stem seals. The issue becomes apparent after the car has been idling for a few minutes, and then produces some epic amounts of smoke! I did not test for this at the time of purchase, and the dealer is playing hardball with me. It only seems to show it clearly after a cold start. The warm engine seem to have much less smoke when left idling.

I first noticed the plume after i left the car idling when i was putting in the a child seat and blipped the throttle when i got back in it. I put this down to the hot exhaust and having driven through a puddle shortly before parking up, and there didn't seem to be any smoke when i was driving normally. However, i have reproduced this on my driveway at home a couple of times from cold start.

It then prompted me of an evening to add 1L of oil on the OBC, and i stopped at the next garage and added 1 litre of castrol edge to bring it back to max.

He is claiming the valve stem seals are "wear and tear" and he is not obliged to help. However, i believe that a car described as "Perfect car, Truly mint" should not come with a fault that is very expensive to repair. As i understand it, an issue that shows during the first 30 days, and is likely to have been present during the time of sale, should entitle me to a refund of the repair cost, or the ability to return the car directly for a full refund. I have tried to do this with the dealer, who did not speak to me at all for the first two weeks, despite leaving a voicemail and text message.

Only when i emailed him and put my concerns in writing did he reply. He is saying he will take it to his own workshop, and may pay a "small goodwill gesture" towards any required repair.

What would you do motors? Should i let him take the car to his own workshop, or go to a BMW specialist/dealer of my own choosing, and pay for diagnostics to give me protection?
 
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Janesy B said:
He's described it as a perfect car, so if it's not perfect it doesn't meet the description...
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This is what I thought! However, he does not know I have a screenshot of the advert, with that as the headline.

His latest reply:
Just had new mot at BMW. FSH by BMW., Upgrades - Alloy Wheels - 19in Star-Spoke Style 95, Electric Glass Sunroof with Vent Function, Bi-Xenon Lights, Powered boot., 5+ owners, Standard Features - Satellite Navigation, Sunroof Electric (Glass), Air-Conditioning (Automatic), Cruise Control, Parking Aid (Rear), Seats Heated (Driver/Passenger), Voice Activated Controls, Alarm, Computer (Driver Information System), Electric Windows (Front/Rear), In Car Entertainment (Radio/CD Autochanger), Paint Metallic, Upholstery Leather. 5 seats, Silver, Available to view 7 days a week by appointment. PX a pleasure. FCA approved finance facility, all major cards taken, HPi report provided. Please telephone ******* on ********* or ******* anytime to arrange a viewing or just get more information. Thanks.

The last paragraph is inserted belo as cars break down and this is not the dealers fault. The question, and I have been here many times, is the cars state at the point of sale. In this instance the car had just passed an mot at a BMW dealer and therefore the emissions were fine. The mot has the car running on tickover for several minutes and any issues would be apparent. I also drove the car a couple of times and saw no smoke. It would be fair to say at the point of sale she was 100%. I am, however, happy to have the car into our workshop next week for evaluation. It could be anything, a blocked breather, valve stem seals as you mention, a coked up rpiston ring etc. All these items are service items. The car, as you saw on the computer and history, was due a service.

I am happy to make a contribution if I feel it deemed necessary because I care about my customers, not because of any claimed rights. I wouldn’t sell you the car if I wasn’t happy, but clearly something seems to be awry.
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He is referring to the consumer rights act i pasted to him:

Second-hand car from a dealer

When you buy a second-hand car from a dealer, you have the right, under both the Consumer Rights Act (which replaces the Sale of Goods Act from 01 October 2015), to expect the car to:
be of satisfactory quality (taking into account its age and mileage)
meet any description given to you when you were buying it ( whether in the advert or in discussions prior to sale)
be fit for the purpose (for example, to get you from A to B safely)
If the second-hand car does not meet these requirements, you have the right to claim against the dealer for breach of contract.
If something you buy is not 'as described', or if the seller is guilty of misrepresentation, you're entitled to:
give the second-hand car back and get your money back
if you want to keep the car, ask for compensation (usually the cost of any repairs it needs)
But if you buy a second-hand car that was not described as being in excellent condition or good working order and it breaks soon after you buy it, you don't have any right to reject it or to claim compensation.
Click to expand...
 
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As said above. If he's playing hardball, then the car does not meet the description of "perfect" and "mint condition". I think that would be an easy one to settle.
 
Cars due a service don't start smoking like a chimney when cold, and the fault is easy to replicate. The dealer has written his own death sentence by describing the car as perfect and truly mint. Now he admits that it could be a fault, stem seals, rings and breathers aren't service items because they're not included on any service schedule... I wouldn't expect worn rings or seals on a car that has 50k.
 
Would be asking him to take it to BMW for a independent diagnosis and then if it's confirmed its the valve stem seals he should be covering the cost fully or refunding you. The law and consumer rights are on your side here so keep pushing. Maybe a good idea to lodge your issue with the local trading standards so its on file.
 
He should either pay for the repairs or give a full refund. If you took it to court that is almost certainly what he would be ordered to do. He dropped himself right in it by miss-selling the car.
 
"5+ owners" would have scared me!!

It also doesnt sound like he's "playing hardball" though, he's offered to have a look and see what he can offer. You at least need to give him the opportunity to do that - if the outcome isnt satisfactory then go further but dont jump to nuclear options first!
 
Front page of advert..

advert.png

iaind said:
"5+ owners" would have scared me!!

It also doesnt sound like he's "playing hardball" though, he's offered to have a look and see what he can offer. You at least need to give him the opportunity to do that - if the outcome isnt satisfactory then go further but dont jump to nuclear options first!
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You didn't see the earlier emails!

Without predujice. Ok. You need to ascertain exactly what is wrong if you think there is a fault. you need to quantify the oil consumption and then if you want us to have a look at the car we will have your findings checked. You have to study the meaning of fair wear and tear on a second hand car. Go and do this then revert. If you want to threaten me after taking a friendly approach then I have nothing more to say.

On 29 Mar 2016, at 17:28, Malt_Vinegar wrote:

Hi ******,

Thanks for getting back to me. I hope you had a great holiday!

I have read your email, and believe that this issue constitutes "a fault" with the car. This fault will have been present at the time of purchase, and it renders the car unfit for purpose, not of a satisfactory quality and not free from any defect.

If you are happy to investigate, please let me know if you wish to have the vehicle inspected, and if you are happy to have me drive the car in the mean time.

If you do not wish to look into repairing the vehicle, then I wish to exercise my right to return the car immediately.

Regards
Malt_Vinegar
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Fair point... does sound like a bit difficult, but my understanding is that you cant just say "take it back", you do have to give them reasonable opportunity to put it right. Take it back to them, see what they say but sounds like you might need to be prepared to take it further
 
As he's quick to point out that the MOT emissions where fine and that it is left idling when being tested and nothing was spotted it sounds like he may well have given it a little Italian tune up before it was tested.
 
How far is he from you? I'd be inclined to just go and see him face to face, with the car and a means to get home. People often get a bit gobby by email, if you stand in front of him and be reasonable and friendly - say you're leaving the car with him so you can both agree and amicable next step... then see what happens! Used car dealers are notoriously difficult, but too much keyboard warrioring can just rile them up even more. Your rights are very clear in law, but you want to avoid the hassle of trying to forcibly use them!
 
Agree with iaind, email is OK initially but speaking to them in person will be easier. Easier to be friendly and amical as emails can come across quite differently to how they are intended.
 
You have to give him an opportunity to correct the issues and I believe this must be done in writing as otherwise if it all goes south you will have to start again and give him another opportunity to correct with a paper trail to prove you have given sufficient time.

I definitely would request that it go to BMW for inspection as they will have nothing to hide
 
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