Qobuz Studio Masters - HD alternative to iTunes??

I'm not sure I understand the point of them to be honest. 16-bit 44.1kHz is perfectly able to reproduce the extent of our ears frequency response and has more than sufficient dynamic range for music.

24-bit has its place when recording and carrying out processing on audio, but for playback purposes it's overkill in my eyes (ears). Same goes for huge sample rates, but even then I cease to see the point in recording beyond 44.1kHz. CD quality is already 'HD' as it where compared to the majority of audio sold these days...

I can't imagine it taking off to be honest unless they go to town on marketing generally for 24-bit audio.
 
I'm not sure I understand the point of them to be honest. 16-bit 44.1kHz is perfectly able to reproduce the extent of our ears frequency response and has more than sufficient dynamic range for music.

24-bit has its place when recording and carrying out processing on audio, but for playback purposes it's overkill in my eyes (ears). Same goes for huge sample rates, but even then I cease to see the point in recording beyond 44.1kHz. CD quality is already 'HD' as it where compared to the majority of audio sold these days...

I can't imagine it taking off to be honest unless they go to town on marketing generally for 24-bit audio.

but blu-ray HD audio sounds better to me than the dvd alternative and isnt that the difference here? 16bit to 24bit?

i agree though, music on the whole is worse than it used to be now its all designed for mp3s.
 
but blu-ray HD audio sounds better to me than the dvd alternative and isnt that the difference here? 16bit to 24bit?

No.

DVD audio is (data) compressed in a lossy way and the data bit rate (not depth) is also significantly lower. HD audio codecs on Blu Ray are lossless AFAIK, with some discs providing linear PCM audio options too.

DVD audio isn't even CD quality.
 
Unfortunately, that doesn't entirely stand up. DVD can also have LPCM audio. So DVD can be higher than CD. ;)

Compare the DVD and Bluray of Queen Rock Montreal. 16bit 48khz Stereo vs 24bit 48khz Stereo. I've got both and imo the Bluray is significantly better - plus for a gig recorded way back in 1981, it's amazing. :) You can also compare CD releases to DVD-Audio and SACD, although the mastering differences may cause issues in direct comparisons.

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Anyway, back to the OP.

Looks interesting, depends on the source through. I've got a couple of Rolling Stones releases from HDTracks and the remastering is pretty poor. Original viny/CD releases sound better.
 
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People have often shown downsampling SACD stuff to CD and then comparing them yields an identical experience.

It's always the mastering - i.e. more care/attention has been paid to one version. I have a stupid, stupid fetish for going on the Steve Hoffman forums and looking at different artists discographys and looking at which versions of the album have the best mastering - obviously it's usually the original but sometimes even the original CD and vinyl were done differently so it becomes a fun game of tracking the best version down.

Remasters = nearly always worse. With the professional film/video crowd there are certain standards that are adhered to, which usually means things are done well. The music industry doesn't have any standards for audio which is why things are in the state they are.

I'll be buying CDs until iTunes offers ALAC downloads, and even then I'd be making sure it's not an iTunes specific master but the original.
 
Unfortunately, that doesn't entirely stand up. DVD can also have LPCM audio. So DVD can be higher than CD. ;)

Compare the DVD and Bluray of Queen Rock Montreal. 16bit 48khz Stereo vs 24bit 48khz Stereo. I've got both and imo the Bluray is significantly better - plus for a gig recorded way back in 1981, it's amazing. :) You can also compare CD releases to DVD-Audio and SACD, although the mastering differences may cause issues in direct comparisons.

True, the raw specifications allow it but I was referring about the majority of feature films, stuff you pick up directly off the street so to speak. Other than specialist music video type discs, few actually bother to use this.

With regards to your point between Queen Rock Montreal, as you say the mastering would make the difference. The process was probably carried out by a different person, different circumstances etc. If you've got both discs why not have a look, us ME's usually get a credit.
 
True, the raw specifications allow it but I was referring about the majority of feature films, stuff you pick up directly off the street so to speak. Other than specialist music video type discs, few actually bother to use this.

With regards to your point between Queen Rock Montreal, as you say the mastering would make the difference. The process was probably carried out by a different person, different circumstances etc. If you've got both discs why not have a look, us ME's usually get a credit.

Both mastered by Tim Young.
 
If you're talking about the Queen one still, a quick Google says that for the BD release, the multitrack tapes were dug out and it was freshly remixed and remastered.
 
In which case there is the potential for a huge difference then, even if the ME is the same. Interesting none the less though :)
 
The DVD was re-released with the BD, were you comparing the older version? Even then, with the re-release there was a several month gap between it's release and the BD/HD-DVD version.

As said, downsampling 24bit material to 16bit/redbook format yields a completely identical experience because there's no way it can sound different. If it does sound different the mundane explanation is that it reallyis different, at least in terms of what happened to it between the master tapes of the recording and it being burnt onto disc - much like many modern vinyl releases are of popular artists albums are - which is annoying because I end up buying a CD then reading that the vinyl or SACD release is superior and then having to hunt for a copy of that. When that's turned into regular FLAC/ALAC/WAV/AIFF etc, it's identical to the original version.

If you want a TL;DR on 24bit vs 16bit:

It seems to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding what bit depth is and how it works in digital audio. This misunderstanding exists not only in the consumer and audiophile worlds but also in some education establishments and even some professionals. This misunderstanding comes from supposition of how digital audio works rather than how it actually works. It's easy to see in a photograph the difference between a low bit depth image and one with a higher bit depth, so it's logical to suppose that higher bit depths in audio also means better quality. This supposition is further enforced by the fact that the term 'resolution' is often applied to bit depth and obviously more resolution means higher quality. So 24bit is Hi-Rez audio and 24bit contains more data, therefore higher resolution and better quality. All completely logical supposition but I'm afraid this supposition is not entirely in line with the actual facts of how digital audio works. I'll try to explain:

When recording, an Analogue to Digital Converter (ADC) reads the incoming analogue waveform and measures it so many times a second (1*). In the case of CD there are 44,100 measurements made per second (the sampling frequency). These measurements are stored in the digital domain in the form of computer bits. The more bits we use, the more accurately we can measure the analogue waveform. This is because each bit can only store two values (0 or 1), to get more values we do the same with bits as we do in normal counting. IE. Once we get to 9, we have to add another column (the tens column) and we can keep adding columns add infinitum for 100s, 1000s, 10000s, etc. The exact same is true for bits but because we only have two values per bit (rather than 10) we need more columns, each column (or additional bit) doubles the number of vaules we have available. IE. 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024 .... If these numbers appear a little familiar it is because all computer technology is based on bits so these numbers crop up all over the place. In the case of 16bit we have roughly 65,000 different values available. The problem is that an analogue waveform is constantly varying. No matter how many times a second we measure the waveform or how many bits we use to store the measurement, there are always going to be errors. These errors in quantifying the value of a constantly changing waveform are called quantisation errors. Quantisation errors are bad, they cause distortion in the waveform when we convert back to analogue and listen to it.

So far so good, what I've said until now would agree with the supposition of how digital audio works. I seem to have agreed that more bits = higher resolution. True, however, where the facts start to diverge from the supposition is in understanding the result of this higher resolution. Going back to what I said above, each time we increase the bit depth by one bit, we double the number of values we have available (EG. 4bit = 16 values, 5bit = 32 values). If we double the number of values, we halve the amount of quantisation errors. Still with me? Because now we come to the whole nub of the matter. There is in fact a perfect solution to quantisation errors which completely (100%) eliminates quantisation distortion, the process is called 'Dither' and is built into every ADC on the market.

Dither: Essentially during the conversion process a very small amount of white noise is added to the signal, this has the effect of completely randomising the quantisation errors. Randomisation in digital audio, once converted back to analogue is heard as pure white (un-correlated) noise. The result is that we have an absolutely perfect measurement of the waveform (2*) plus some noise. In other words, by dithering, all the measurement errors have been converted to noise. (3*).

Hopefully you're still with me, because we can now go on to precisely what happens with bit depth. Going back to the above, when we add a 'bit' of data we double the number of values available and therefore halve the number of quantisation errors. If we halve the number of quantisation errors, the result (after dithering) is a perfect waveform with halve the amount of noise. To phrase this using audio terminology, each extra bit of data moves the noise floor down by 6dB (half). We can turn this around and say that each bit of data provides 6dB of dynamic range (*4). Therefore 16bit x 6db = 96dB. This 96dB figure defines the dynamic range of CD. (24bit x 6dB = 144dB).

So, 24bit does add more 'resolution' compared to 16bit but this added resolution doesn't mean higher quality, it just means we can encode a larger dynamic range. This is the misunderstanding made by many. There are no extra magical properties, nothing which the science does not understand or cannot measure. The only difference between 16bit and 24bit is 48dB of dynamic range (8bits x 6dB = 48dB) and nothing else. This is not a question for interpretation or opinion, it is the provable, undisputed logical mathematics which underpins the very existence of digital audio.

So, can you actually hear any benefits of the larger (48dB) dynamic range offered by 24bit? Unfortunately, no you can't. The entire dynamic range of some types of music is sometimes less than 12dB. The recordings with the largest dynamic range tend to be symphony orchestra recordings but even these virtually never have a dynamic range greater than about 60dB. All of these are well inside the 96dB range of the humble CD. What is more, modern dithering techniques (see 3 below), perceptually enhance the dynamic range of CD by moving the quantisation noise out of the frequency band where our hearing is most sensitive. This gives a percievable dynamic range for CD up to 120dB (150dB in certain frequency bands).

You have to realise that when playing back a CD, the amplifier is usually set so that the quietest sounds on the CD can just be heard above the noise floor of the listening environment (sitting room or cans). So if the average noise floor for a sitting room is say 50dB (or 30dB for cans) then the dynamic range of the CD starts at this point and is capable of 96dB (at least) above the room noise floor. If the full dynamic range of a CD was actually used (on top of the noise floor), the home listener (if they had the equipment) would almost certainly cause themselves severe pain and permanent hearing damage. If this is the case with CD, what about 24bit Hi-Rez. If we were to use the full dynamic range of 24bit and a listener had the equipment to reproduce it all, there is a fair chance, depending on age and general health, that the listener would die instantly. The most fit would probably just go into coma for a few weeks and wake up totally deaf. I'm not joking or exaggerating here, think about it, 144dB + say 50dB for the room's noise floor. But 180dB is the figure often quoted for sound pressure levels powerful enough to kill and some people have been killed by 160dB. However, this is unlikely to happen in the real world as no DACs on the market can output the 144dB dynamic range of 24bit (so they are not true 24bit converters), almost no one has a speaker system capable of 144dB dynamic range and as said before, around 60dB is the most dynamic range you will find on a commercial recording.

So, if you accept the facts, why does 24bit audio even exist, what's the point of it? There are some useful application for 24bit when recording and mixing music. In fact, when mixing it's pretty much the norm now to use 48bit resolution. The reason it's useful is due to summing artefacts, multiple processing in series and mainly headroom. In other words, 24bit is very useful when recording and mixing but pointless for playback. Remember, even a recording with 60dB dynamic range is only using 10bits of data, the other 6bits on a CD are just noise. So, the difference in the real world between 16bit and 24bit is an extra 8bits of noise.

I know that some people are going to say this is all rubbish, and that “I can easily hear the difference between a 16bit commercial recording and a 24bit Hi-Rez version”. Unfortunately, you can't, it's not that you don't have the equipment or the ears, it is not humanly possible in theory or in practice under any conditions!! Not unless you can tell the difference between white noise and white noise that is well below the noise floor of your listening environment!! If you play a 24bit recording and then the same recording in 16bit and notice a difference, it is either because something has been 'done' to the 16bit recording, some inappropriate processing used or you are hearing a difference because you expect a difference.

G

1 = Actually these days the process of AD conversion is a little more complex, using oversampling (very high sampling frequencies) and only a handful of bits. Later in the conversion process this initial sampling is 'decimated' back to the required bit depth and sample rate.

2 = The concept of the perfect measurement or of recreating a waveform perfectly may seem like marketing hype. However, in this case it is not. It is in fact the fundamental tenet of the Nyquist-Shannon Sampling Theorem on which the very existence and invention of digital audio is based. From WIKI: “In essence the theorem shows that an analog signal that has been sampled can be perfectly reconstructed from the samples”. I know there will be some who will disagree with this idea, unfortunately, disagreement is NOT an option. This theorem hasn't been invented to explain how digital audio works, it's the other way around. Digital Audio was invented from the theorem, if you don't believe the theorem then you can't believe in digital audio either!!

3 = In actual fact these days there are a number of different types of dither used during the creation of a music product. Most are still based on the original TPDFs (triangular probability density function) but some are a little more 'intelligent' and re-distribute the resulting noise to less noticeable areas of the hearing spectrum. This is called noise-shaped dither.

4 = Dynamic range, is the range of volume between the noise floor and the maximum volume.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bit-vs-16bit-the-myth-exploded

If you got to the bottom, then the bonus is that the above also explains why digital volume is so destructive at 16bit, better at 32bit, and has been made almost completely non-destructive by the newest, even higher-bit architecture digital preamps (such as those by NAD in their Masters line).

EDIT - one thing I want to quickly add, is with SACDs etc, the people making them are usually the ones who are really anal about recording quality (e.g. Chesky) so they will sound better than most regular CDs, but that's not due to being 24/192 or anything like that. There are SACDs that sound worse than well mastered regular CDs and so on and so forth.
 
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In general I think there's a lot to be said for the fact that mastering is more important than file bitrate. However, I have run a comparison between a native 24/96 stereo file and the same file downsampled to 16/48. I preferred the 24 bit version, though being fair, I'm not exactly using a rubbish system.
 
A couple of DAD (24/96 PCM DVD) & HDAD's (24/192 PCM DVDA) I have when extracted, loaded into an appropriate audio editor and viewed as a frequency spectrum when played shows the usual responses in the 20hz to 20Khz range and a huge spike way above the 20Khz dropoff.
I enquired about this phenomenon on the net and was informed that it is a sign that the ME used some trickery to push as much noise out of the hearing range as possible.

Basically What I'm saying is that I didn't see any harmonics that extend beyond the 20khz range, so that notion doesn't really work (even though no-one has brought it up yet) and to lay-man confirm what that wall of text is getting at, the increased specs is only really useful to clear away unwanted noise out of the sweetspot during capture.

I really must wire my trusty Pioneer DV-575A back in.
 
In general I think there's a lot to be said for the fact that mastering is more important than file bitrate. However, I have run a comparison between a native 24/96 stereo file and the same file downsampled to 16/48. I preferred the 24 bit version, though being fair, I'm not exactly using a rubbish system.

How was the file converted from 96 to 44kHz? That's the only potential for difference but the chances of you being able to discern that are slim. Anything else would have been placebo, regardless of playback system.


I enquired about this phenomenon on the net and was informed that it is a sign that the ME used some trickery to push as much noise out of the hearing range as possible.

You've found the added noise that's part of the 'dither' process during the bit depth reduction. It's shaped in such a way that it sits outside of the human hearing range. It's ironic, during the whole recording process care is taken to minimise noise, then the final part of the processing is to add noise back in!
 
How was the file converted from 96 to 44kHz? That's the only potential for difference but the chances of you being able to discern that are slim. Anything else would have been placebo, regardless of playback system.

The file was converted using foobar2000.
Have to say that I now find it amusing that someone who's never run the test on my system feels qualified to make such a blanket statement.
 
The file was converted using foobar2000.
Have to say that I now find it amusing that someone who's never run the test on my system feels qualified to make such a blanket statement.

I feel perfectly qualified; I make my living by working in professional audio, have a BSc in audio engineering, and am near to completing an MSc in the same thing.

The only potential for difference between the two would be the sample rate conversion and dither algorithms being used which these days are pretty much impossible to hear, unless your hearing extends beyond 20kHz. The article Somnambulist posted is bang on the money. I'm not trying to be arsy in the slightest or create an argument, but there is a huge misconception with regards to digital audio that bigger numbers are better without understanding that the law of dimishing returns plays a huge part. Eventually with sample rates at 44.1kHz and beyond the human ear simply cannot distinguish the difference since the 'bad' aliasing frequencies being produced are above the human hearing range. A dog might have a valid argument though! :D

Higher bit depths simply gives you more headroom, something that isn't required when playing back audio. If you can hear a difference, the conversion was either done poorly or there's an underlying issue with your system. I know by your previous posts your far from inexperienced with regards to matters relating to audio but the engineering principles behind your system simply don't allow there to be a difference that's big enough to notice, hence my blanket statement.

Any chance of being able to get a copy of the files for a comparison? I've got access to several PMC systems in acoustically treated spaces. I'd love to try it out.
 
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Intriguing - it might explain at least with my comparison of a tiny number of SACD albums I have with their CD equivalents, some sounded more or less the same as the CD and a few seemed much better. I basically got a mate to randomly change in the discs(I didn't know which ones were playing). So the differences are probably down to the production standards of the SACD version then.OTH,the vast majority of my albums are CDs anyway,so its a moot point.

If you look at Qobiz they also offer 16 bit files in FLAC and have a very wide range of albums. With iTunes you get lower quality for the same price.

Although I do wonder,if it would be just better to get the CD in the end, as they can be cheaper in many cases if you wait a few months.
 
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Intriguing - it might explain at least with my comparison of a tiny number of SACD albums I have with their CD equivalents, some sounded more or less the same as the CD and a few seemed much better. I basically got a mate to randomly change in the discs(I didn't know which ones were playing). So the differences are probably down to the production standards of the SACD version then.OTH,the vast majority of my albums are CDs anyway,so its a moot point.

If you look at Qobiz they also offer 16 bit files in FLAC and have a very wide range of albums. With iTunes you get lower quality for the same price.

Although I do wonder,if it would be just better to get the CD in the end, as they can be cheaper in many cases if you wait a few months.

That's my preferred option - get the CD when it's a bit cheaper, then you've got options as to how you rip/store it. :)
 
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