Recording my Music to the PC = Poor

FatRakoon

FatRakoon

FatRakoon

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I use an Atari Falcon with CuBase Audio. I have done for many Years now.
For the past 20 or so years, I was also using a basic PC with a SBLive Drive on it, first the SBLive and then Audigy, and I had the LiveDrive Port thingy with it, and I connected a 3 way Cable to it, with LEFT RIGHT and I sued the VIDEO for the DIGITAL from the Falcon, and then I simply set the Recording to WHAT-U-HEAR and this then gave me a basic but very good Digital to Analog convertion.

I recorded things with Nero Wave Editor and all I did was start recording, play the music on the Atari and then after the music had finished, I stopped the recording.
Nice and simple... I would then snip the silence from the start and the finish and I was done.

I saved as WAV or MP3 and everythign was just fine. The quality was great and I was all happy.

Now, what I am now doing, is pretty much the same thing. I now have a much better mixer 16 Channel ( I used 2 x 4 channel mixers in the past ) and their output were simply spliced together, but it worked fine. I now have a proper DIGITAL to ANALOG adapter for the Falcon.
The machine that I use to actually record however, is different as is the software.
I now use a basic little Laptop, running Windows 10-64 and I am using a SoundBlaster OMNI USB SoundCard ( its better than onboard, plus I have better control ) and I am using Audacity 3.2.1

The snag is, that no matter what I do, I just cannot for the life of me , get the recordings to sound even remotely good.
I have the record level at 80% right now ( Any more and it starts to distort ).

I am using Multiple Midi devices, these have their volume set to about 3/4 full, but again I have been trying various volume levels.
The mixer I use purely for simply mixing the sounds... I have no need for any actual live mixing,and so I have them set to full right now, but again, I have tried various levels.
Now, what really gets to me, is that when I play the music back, and through the Laptop, it sounds just fine.

There is a rotten delay of about half a second, so I cannot listen through the AMP and the Laptop at the same time, so, instead of a splitter in the Mixer output, I have put a switch. A Detail.

Is there anyone out there recording to a laptop like this, and is there anything they can think of?

Other than moving to a PC to do my music? - I use Atari cos thats what I want to use... better tools wont make my music any better, I do it for fun not for anything else and so I like using the Atari, but it feels like its the PC side thats failing me right now.
 
It's pretty awesome that you have an Atari Falcon and still use it.

If I understand what you've described there, you have the mixer's output connected to the USB soundcard's input, and you can hear the music fine like that, but recording doesn't work right? In that case the soundcard must be working, and it's just something to do with how you're recording it.

You can use the audio loopback feature that Windows 10 supports to record exactly what you hear. In Audacity, set the Audio Host to "Windows WASAPI", then the Recording Device to the one that's named the same as your soundcard's ouput but with "(loopback)" on the end, e.g. on my PC the one I would use is called "Speakers (Avantree DG60) (loopback)".
 
It sounds like you can lose at least one device out of the signal chain by changing to a mixer with integrated USB interface.

On the cheaper end there are tons of options such as the Behringer XENYX Q1002USB and then work up with more channels/better brands.

Combined with something like the ASIO4ALL driver on the laptop you should take out half the issues and also be able to use the desk outputs direct to some speakers.
 
Thanks guys, I will have a play shortly.

MR Evil.
Yes thanks. I love my Atari and I have spent more on that, than any other PC I have EVER had, except my Server... That was by far the worst load of money that I have EVER wasted my money on. But the Falcon is my baby... One of... I also have a TT With a CaTTamaran ( 48Mhz 040 ).

Whoop.
No, I feel you have missed how my setup is working.
Mixer with USB? - No, the Audio device is a USB device in the Laptop and its a fairly high quality option that I have. I could get better, of course I can, but I think its better than my other PRecious devices and so its just that I am doing something wrong.
Behringer etc - Again, my Atari is just being a sequencer for the Midi Devices. I have the Atari's own MIDI OUT and MIDI IN, and I am also using an extra device that plugs into the Parallel printer port that then also gives me an extra 8 outputs. This gives me a possible 144 channels, and in truth, I never need even a fraction of that.
The AUDIO output is simply a 2 channel output from the Mixer... LEFT and RIGHT.
If I play the music through directly to the AMP, or through the Laptop ( the Laptop has the Creative OMNI outputing to a seperate smaller AMP & Speakers ) then it sounds just fine! - I am very happy with the Audio that gets to the laptop.
The issue that I am having is ONLY when I record the music and then try playing it back... Its muffled, has no treble, you cannot hear any cymbals or higher pitched sounds and the bass is simply horrible and it is as if you have turned the EQ to as low as you can on every freq.

-

I have turned the inbuilt audio device OFF in the Laptops BIOS, and I am using a very short and very high quality USB cable from the Laptop to the OMNI.
Similarly I have of course used very well sheilded high quality cable, and gold or silver plugs, and the cables are made by myself and are just long anough and tehre is no silly wiring that is causing any form of Earth hum. This is a lesson I learned many years ago especially when I put MIDI cables near unsheilded Audio cables... That was a serious annoyance that tok me ages to realise.

Anyway, I will have a quick play before beddy-byes and so I will let you know anything tomorrow after work.
 
My gut feeling ... its your USB soundcard, which although it may have decent hardware is presenting to windows as a normal style sound card, and not as a true audio interface ( yes, there can be a difference ).

When you transport audio through the normal windows sound devices like usb sound cards, built in audio ports etc, there is latency that gets added to it ( cause generic windows media has go to through a lot of software protocol layers when handled ... which all has to fight against the other demands on the CPU within the OS. ). Audio interfaces generally have driver which cuts through that and maintains low latency between getting audio in/out of the computer, by avoiding the generic windows media handling. Think of it a little like how your saying about keeping your cables short. Audio interface drivers keep the distance short in a similar way through the OS.

I'll give an example. I have a Roland RD-88. I can plug it into the computer directly with a USB cable ( it appears in windows as a normal audio source, and output as it has speakers), which can transport audio, and midi. the midi works fine, no latency when used in a DAW. The audio from the keyboard into the PC through the USB gets latency added. This makes it hard to play listening to it from the PC sound output ... just in the same way you describe. I also get distorted sounds in the DAW at times and its all just messy. This I think is all to do with conflicts created by the latency added to sounds.

I bought an audio interface ( Scarlett 4i4, there are plenty of others ). I now have the keyboard's audio and midi plugged into the inputs. I have the output ports of the audio plugged into my amp. Lastly the audio interface is connected to the PC with the USB. On windows, my audio output is set to the interface ... so any windows sound output goes to the interface, and onto the amp. There is now no delay in the setup. I can play the keyboard whilst listening to the output through the amp+speakers and the PC can record it fine without any delays. Similarly, if the PC is playing, it comes out fine too.

If your set on keeping the omni, the read up on ASIO and ASIO4ALL ... which is a set of programs to make generic window sound devices transport sound in a similar to the way an interface would. I tried it for me ... but it wasn't very easy to get working the way I wanted.

I've blethered on enough ... I'm no expert, and its a huuuuuge field to fall into when looking at dealing with audio ... but as I said, I think your soundcard is the issue by adding latency.
 
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No, cool, blether on all you want. Any info is good.

Now, whether or not I am keeping the OMNI is neither here nor there to be honest. I am only using it because of the basic reasons..

1. Its way better than the Laptops own built-in Audio in terms of quality and certainly power.
2. I already bought the thing and so I am using it

I have gone through a few options when it comes to Audio devices on my PCs. My main PC has the Asus Essence STX II, I have other cards like the DX2 and the Xonar and a few other Creative cards from the Live to the Audigy and also the Recon3D and the Fatal1ty and so over the yers I have gone through some cards ath thave and have not been good purchases, and I also have a few Firewire devices too or varying spex, but the Laptop does NOT have Firewire ports... That renders those a bit useless for me.
I will be completely honest, but the delay is NOT a huge issue for me... Its annoying for sure, but its nothing that I am not expecting. As I said, it is only really notiuceable when I am using both the main AMP and the Laptop with its AMP... If I just turn off the AMP when I am recording, its fine. I can live with it. I would like to stop it of course, but its not a huge issue.
You also need to understand, that all the stuff I am doing on my Atari, and the ONLY use I have for the PC, is the final actual recording of the end track. I say this, but so many times I have had to go back and redo things and so thats an annoyance, and so I dont really want to spend too much money on even more audio interfaces.
I have been told by many of my friends, that since I have PCs coming out of the woodwork so its not like I dont have a few spares, plus I have many sound interfsces, plus multiple Midi ports for the PC, so I could and should use a PC instead, but I enjoy using the Atari to do it. Its a hobby more than anything to make money and the hobby involves the Atari, otherwise it would simply not be the same for me.

Anyway, where was I?
Ok, this ASIO. Ok, Im not 100% on rememberiing it, but I did play about with that, and I was having issues with trying to record and so I reverted it back to using the normal way, and it worked again. HOWEVER... The Sound did improve a fair bit.
Its still nowhere near what it should be, and I have a previous track that I recorded last year, and I have got hold of a Technics keyboard that seems to have a few nice Guitars in it and so I wanted to re-do that track with using the sounds from the Technics for the guitar parts, and it sounds nice, but when I try to record it, there is the very poor percussion sections where I am supposed to be hearing a crystal clear tik-tik-tsss of the Closed-Closed-Open--- and instead I aam getting a more muffled pf-pf-psh and yet just playing it normally, its fine, just recorded, its poo.
Again, its vastly improved over what it was the other week, but its still not there yet.

Ah, Im just being a whiny little tart ... Ill get there eventually.
 
I expect it's the creative USB sound card. One instant thought on the creative USB card, it's made from plastic, and expect it's not shielded very well. You could try wrapping it in aluminium kitchen foil to see what happens.

I would try recording on the Asus Essence STX II, I use these cards and consider them high quality, however I only use my computers for playback.

On a PC, or any audio device, interference effects the analogue side of DAC's, it's subtle and you often don't realise it's there until it's removed. Interference comes in not only on the line-in, but also mains and ethernet, the quality of the computer PSU helps also.

It also comes in on USB cables, again EMI / RF travels on the USB cable and eventually enters the analogue side of DAC's. I have a Blue Yeti microphone, I replaced a regular 3 meter cable with a 3 meter triple shielded Lindy gold cable and it prevented some mic cut outs I experienced with the cheaper USB cable.

Both my main PC and HTPC use mains conditioning, Russ Andrews mains cables, galvanic ethernet isolators and Van Damme Lo-Cap 55 interconnects, I'm using Seasonic Prime PSU's also. The sound output from these computers is remarkably high quality for consumer PC soundcard. It's a case of audio hygiene and it's the totality of the improvements you make combined.

The other issue you can have is ground loop issues. For example if your Atari is on the same power strip as your laptop and USB sound card that will encourage a ground loop. The solution is to get everything separate, so you want different equipment on their own power strips, then these power strips going back to separate wall sockets.

Other advice, don't run audio cables parallel to unshielded mains cables, try to have audio and mains cables cross at 90 degrees to each other.
 
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LOL I am now fully aware of the importance of sheilding cables and using high quality ones...

When I first setup my system in my previous home, I had wires going all over the place, and I would often hear a faint hum.
I soon realised that with some of the ewires being LINE Level and some were POWER and some were MIDI they would often cross over, or interfere with each other.
My first solution was simply to make sure they stayed apart, but it was simply not really possible to fully cure it without splashing out on good cables.

So now I only use good cables, and I dont have loops or bundles stuffed down the back of stuff, I only have the lengths I need ( plus some extra for movements etc )

Foil on the OMNI.
LOL I did think to try that out, but again, the issue I am getting is not really interference.
That said, I will certainly try it.
I do think that it is more to do with the actual way it is being recorded, and that I am missing somethign so obvious, that its blinding me... Cant see teh wood for the trees kind of thing?

For example... ( And I have done this )

Most of my gear has LINE OUTS, a few do not and I am using HEADPHONE OUTS.
I have the volume set on the gear at about 3/4 or about 75-80%
The outputs on the Mixer, are all also set to about 75% ( Individually and master )
The INPUT Level on the Sound Card is also set to about 75% ( Currently itys at 85% though )
Now, I fully understand that 75% here and 75% there will eventually diminish the volume. Thats obvious. However, putting the voluimes up, ends up distorting the sounds, and I get crackling and thumps and rumbles at some times ,especially when Its on a strong kick with deep basses.
So, I am tryign to get the higher sounds to play nice and crisp, and that requires more volume, but then distorts the bass.
I am also now trying to mix up the percussions so I may use the Kawai for the Cymbals etc and the Alesis for the kicks, snares, Toms etc, just so I can have their volumes setup specifically for them, so I can have the cymbals higher and the other percussions lower to try avoiding issues with such different frequencies, but its a total ball ache.

Similarly, I have been working with just a single synth, no mixer and just that one synth going directly to the Laptop and that does fix my issue massively but not 100%

So, is there any kind of feedback loop? I dont think so.
ARGH, I need to chill and maybe start all over again from scratch, setting it all up bit by bit, and making sure that everything is properly fitted and sheilded and see how I go from there!
I will also plop a different PC to try recording there, and not use that Laptop or Omni card... Again, to see what gives, because previously, I was using a full PC with the Drive bay thingy and I never had such a PITA with this.
 
are you definitely sending audio and recording stuff all at the same frequency / bit depth ?

Although I can specify when recording within software the freq/bit depth (44khz, 24bit etc) to record at … there is also a setting within the audio interface which specifies the the freq / bit depth of the link between the interface and the PC.

So as an example, if my interface driver settings are set to 44khz 16bit, and i try and record at 48khz 24bit in audacity, I’m only ever going to truly get the lower 44khz 16bit … which will then be upsampled to the 48/24 setting … which will only loose quality. / clarity.

Having both set to the same would remove any re-sampling, and may clear things up? May be something deep down in a setting which is different from the rest That you’ve missed.

i still think you should sell some of the audio sound cards and buy and interface … they just work. ( and could be used in both laptop and desktop environments. )
 
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Yes, 16Bit 44Khz and I have tried others, some work and some dont.

Yes, and the recording and playback etc can be different but everything is set to 16/44 ( Sorry but it might be at 48Khz actually... I will check later to be 100% on it, but yes, everything is set to that )

44/16 upsampling to 48/24
Yes, I agree there, I have tried 24bit but it moans about that and so its at 16. I have also tried various frequencies up to 192 with varying levels of success, but yeah, they have limited success, plus, since the synths are only 16 and 24, there is no need to overdo things when my ears and skill level and synths are all not really what you could call "top notch".

both same. Absolutely, I am sure, but I am always looking cos I know I am missing something.

Sell the Audio cards.
couple of things on that.. They are NOT surplus. They are all being used in a PC somewhere. obviously, I could ditch them and use the onboard for what I need them for and just keep my best card for my main PC, thats absolutely an option, but then as you say, get an interface... Well, I already do have a couple of firewire interface devices, and so, I am limited to USB, but again, will I be any better off? I probably will be, but I dont want to spend money on somethign unless I know that it will cure everything, and especially when I feel that I could perhaps simply go back to using a basic PC with the LiveDrive that I used in the past that I found to be just great.

Maybe I need to see if I can perhaps test some options out first?

Anyway, I have not recorded anything for a while now and so I need to go and do some more testing and fiddling about. I am also looking ( Liar, I just found a few on google ) at some USB interfaces and there are a fair few for under 200 and so maybe I might give it a looksie.
 
I do appreciate I’m suggesting you spend money, hence the suggestion of selling to fund it. Focusrite have a refurb store of their products which you get good deals on. Their 4i4 device around 145 on their at the moment. Is completely usb powered as well.

But was re-reading your post. Just trying to clear it in my understanding:

- you create live music outputting it to a basic left/right audio pair
- that live L/R audio comes out clear when sent straight to an amp.
- you play the live L/R audio into the usb soundcard and listen to it on the laptop speakers live its clear, but with a slight delay
- if you record that live L/R audio into audacity, it seems to go in clear?
- you play back what you’ve recorded .. it then sounds duff? Is that when played back in audacity, or once you’ve saved it and played it out in another media player ?

Does the file you’ve recorded sound duff when played back on other devices like a different PC ? Or is it clear again?

I’ve seem some comments that to improve audio Playback you need to turn off audio enhancements in windows 10. If you go into the properties of the playback devices like speakers etc and select the advanced tab, there is sometimes a check box for audio enhancement, and that unchecking it can improve things.
 
Its a tad late and so I will keep this to a very quick reply.
- you create live music outputting it to a basic left/right audio pair

YES
- that live L/R audio comes out clear when sent straight to an amp.

YES

- you play the live L/R audio into the usb soundcard and listen to it on the laptop speakers live its clear, but with a slight delay

Not the laptop speakers. The OMNI is conected to another small amp and speaker setup.
But yes, and I do apreciate that the Audio needs to go into the OMNI, then the Laptop then back through the same USB cable back into the OMNI.
- if you record that live L/R audio into audacity, it seems to go in clear?

YES

- you play back what you’ve recorded .. it then sounds duff? Is that when played back in audacity, or once you’ve saved it and played it out in another media player ?
- Does the file you’ve recorded sound duff when played back on other devices like a different PC ? Or is it clear again?

YES, straight away its just awful. I save as WAV, and I will copy that WAV onto a USB Stick and playback on my main PC as that has very good soundcard and speaker setup, but its just horrible.
Its awful if I just play it back straight away on the Laptop too!

- Disable audio enhancement.

YES, everything is currently disabled.

---------------

I have, for what its worth, just bought a couple of really cheap ( I know, I know ) Audio interfaces from ebay. This is purely on a "Bugger it, lets see if there is ANY difference and if there is... Get a proper one" sort of thing.
This is because I was talking with a mate earlier on today and he said that a whiel ago, my recordings were sounding fine and taht was also with the OMNI and this Laptop. So, we were trying to fathom out what is different now, compared with then... The ONLY thing I can think of, is that I have a new Mixer.

Now, about 3 years ago, I was using 2 small 4 Channel mixers ( 8-mono or 4-stereo ) and the output from these 2 mixers was simply spliced wiring ( yeah I know, shurrup ).
Then, I made my own really basic mixer, and that was a simple 10-in and 2-out jobby that was simply a basic 2 into 1 mixer using one resistor, but I had them all in line and there was no noticeable feedback, however there was a lot of voluime loss that was simply helped out ( albeit poorly ) by recording and then amplifying the recording afterwards, and this gave it a nasty hack way to do it, but it was actually very effective and the high parts and the lows were all nice and clear ( Not crystal but not enough to worry about )

So I am workign on the mixer side of things, and its getting improvements, but not enough.

I am going to see what these audio interfaces will help out with and go from there I think.
 
GREAT NEWS!
Earlier on, one of the interfaces arrived... I only bought it a couple of days ago and was not expecting it until Dec 29.

Anyway, its a really cheap Behringer UCA222
I saw it, and it was under £30 and so I decided to get it and have a test but I plopped it onto my main Pc to quickly have a play and as it has a headphone socket, I had a listen of a couple of MP3 tracks and it sounded just fine.
I swapped the OMNI out with this, and I didnt have to do a thing. I had disabled the Laptops onboard Audio and so it only had the OMNI and with that gone, it only has this. I have NOT done any setting up in the software and it just works.


It has also removed ALL the delay
I was able to play the Keyboard and there was no delay at all and it was coming through just nicely. I also used both the main AMP and the little amp that is for the Laptop and ZERO delay.

So yeah, it must have been the OMNI then? Or at least I clearly needed a proper Audio interface.
Annoyingly, I have 2 more on the way, however, this little thing is the same colour as the little AMP and so its blu-tacked onto that and it does what I need it to, plus it has a Monitor switch and trhe headphone socket and so I recon it will just right for me.

I have had a quick record of a Rock track that I was completely unable to get a happy result with and its spot on. I did have a bit of a hiccup because the kick and bass did distort a little, but I simply put the Percussions through the MU90 instead and its was crystal.

Thanks for all the help everyone... I have learned a hell of a lot in this particular issue... Somethign I already knew and I had tried, but much I simply did not.
Looks like I will have a load of gear for sale in the new year...

Again, thank you to EVERYONE who has given advise and listened to my babbling.

Happy [ Fill in your holiday of choice here ] to everyone. LOL.
 
Great news, glad its sorted and the delay has gone. Its one of those things that just sits there and works And you begin to forget about it.

( Glad I was right too! )
 
Yeah, I got a couple more devices arrive, but that little thing just does the job great.
I have done some minor adjustment , and the RECORD input is now set at 50%, the mixer has all its stuff at 50%
I did notice that the output of the main amp and the speakers on the Laptops amp were slightly out and the volume was not a happy level, but they are now and if I have either speaker setup or both all on,. it sounds absolutely fine.

I did have a small scare for a moment when the sounds just fizzled out and I ganuinely though something had fried, but the Laptop simply sent to sleep and so the power was not going to that device, but I moved the mouse and it came back... Made me realise that the sound was as good as the main Amp even through the Laptop, and so I have now stoped the Laptop going to sleep too!
But yeah, its all running absolutely spot on and I am overly chuffed at how its going.

More so is that this little device cost me under £30 and its absolutely perfect.
 
Just a stupid update.
I dug out an old I7 Laptop. This used to be a great thing way back, and I let my son have it for a bit, but he ended up dropping it and breaking the hindge and case and so it got stuffed into a box and left alone.
Now, I came across it the other day and I thought... Since its still in full working order ( minus the HDs taken out ) the only thing is does not like, is opening and closeing the lid, so I thought... Sod it, I will use it instead of the little I5 thats being used now!

Anyway, brand new 240GB SSD and a 500GB HD for the recording and she should be peachy!

What a polava!

Absolutely everything I did, was giving me a huge headache!

There was a bad earth hum that tok ages to find... Turned out the Audio cable from the DD65 was at fault ( HOW? )
I could not get a happy medium and so teh recording is set to 20% and even then, it still distorts.
I have since getting the Behringer thingy also now had a couple of others that I decided to have ap lay with and yeah, they are also iffy in their own way... The Fostex thingy has really bad contacts on the Input dial so thats a bummer and in the end, after several hours of tinkering and piddling about, I have simply gone back to the I5 and the Behringer and its peachy!
Only thing I had that was different was that the I5 is running Windows 10 Pro and the older I7 I put Windows 7 Pro onto it, because under Windows 10, I was having issues connecting to the internet!
I am however going to setup my Atari TT with a few of the really older stuff in my sons bedroom ( he has now left home and thats another room Im pinching ) and I will have another play with that I7 next week.

Anyway, nothing else really, I just wwanted to have a whine for no reason LOL
 
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