Red Bull issue, F1 rules in general?

Soldato
Joined
14 Nov 2002
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Without diluting the Malaysian GP thread I thought id pose a few points and questions here.

I watched this weekends GP with a renewed interest from about half way into the race.

We all know what transpired, and I am conflicted with the way the setup is at the moment.

Team Orders, I personally completely and 100% disagree with and will never think they are a good thing or good for the sport. F1 drivers are considered the best drivers in the world, and they are employed to WIN races.

Vettel is a born winner, everyone can see that, the same as all of the other drivers, so to be told to "hold position" is wrong, and extremely anti competitive.

I know there are arguments both ways, the fact that if we break it down as employee vs employer, he disobeyed an instruction from his employer and should be punished.

But lets look at it from the viewers perspective, both the millions watching worldwide and those that made the effort to go to the race are being stripped of what they are trying to watch and that is good, true racing.

15 laps from the end of the race, mercedes and red bull had both told their drivers to hold position and 'conserve tyres and fuel', pretty much ending the race as a spectacle right there (other than races further down the pack).

How can this be allowed? A good comment was made on TalkSport this morning regarding those betting on the race? Imagine those people who had bet on Vettel to win and then heard the message that he was to hold the position behind Webber and he followed that instruction?

F1 as a sport, as a spectacle has become too much a game of chess. Races are won in the pits and by good tyre choice and good decisions over the weather, not by the drivers actually out racing. The advent of DRS basically making passing a car as easy as pushing a button.

Every team being able to listen to every other teams radio messages, etc.

Im sure a lot will argue regarding the safety of the drivers with regards to things like DRS, but track and vehicle safety has come on leaps and bounds since tragedy such as Senna and Ratzenberger.

The accumulation of the above means I won't watch anything other than the start of the races now, purely because any true battles within the race itself will be put to bed by the team because either they want to make sure the car stays in one piece or they are more interested in the manufacturers title.
 
People forget that F1 is two competitions in one. There is a prize for an individual and a prize for a team, but it is the teams that are spending the money, building the cars etc etc.

I'm not going to disagree with you that it it does sap some of the excitement when inter-team rivalry is nerfed because of the needs of the team but you're still watching a battle between teams!

Fuel and tyres are part of their arsenal. You run out of ammo and you're screwed so it is in their interests to fight as hard as they can at the right moments and conserve fuel and tyres at other moments. Which is the tradeoff made to keep the sport sustainable and affordable for those taking part.

DRS wasn't introduced as a push-to-pass system for the sake of it either, it was there because people complained bitterly about drivers not being able to pass at all when they were in the dirty air of the car in front. I've seen several occasions where a driver has cruised up at maybe 0.5-1s a lap only to get completely stuck behind the car in front due to the aero no longer working. That's not racing either, at least DRS lets the quicker car have a chance of overtaking!


Agree with what you are saying to a point, but lets look at it this way.

The teams are run primarily by sponsorship (Red Bull) or extreme backing from a manufacturer (Ferrari, Mercedes).

These sponsors and manufacturers are running in F1 for advertising and publicity, to the people who are viewing the sport. Without the viewers, the fans there would be no requirement to sponsor, thus there would be no F1 period.

F1 is entertainment, take away the entertainment value and the fans will stop being fans and F1 will cease to exist, its the same in every sport or entertainment event worldwide.

With regards to the dirty air and DRS. Agree that it was frustrating when as you say drivers would catch a car in front and then be unable to pass however the DRS system is a cheap and dirty fix to the problem.

What should be done is to make the cars have cleaner air from the back, much like Indy Cars have done over the years.
 
Yes, but having drivers die all the time (even utter ****s like Senna) was also bad for the sport. Having a massively wasteful sport didn't do the old green credentials any good which also put sponsors off.

What we have now is a compromise between speed and sustainability. The old days weren't sustainable in terms of human life, the recent past wasn't sustainable due to spiralling cost and wastefulness.

Reducing the formula to 75% of the current race distances but keeping the same tyres would put us back to the early 2000s where the grid determined the winner in a lot of cases.

Vehicle design and safety measures have increased 100 fold since Senna lost his life. We haven't had an F1 driver lose their life since then IIRC?

Im not saying we should have 1000bhp turbo monsters with ridiculous aero, and I agree to a point what you are saying about sustainability however as I said, without the fans, there is no F1.
 
Mark Webber is probably one of the best drivers, and nicest people not to have won a championship and almost always through no fault of his own.
 
Definitely, thats great that he has come out and done that.

In contrast, I think the main issue Webber had with the whole situation is he was told to do something and did it, which gave vettel an advantage and allowed him an easier pass - im certain had both cars and drivers been left to their own devices it would have been a different story ;)
 
Got your crystal ball out mate? What makes you think suspending Vettel for a race means missing out on 25 points? For all you know Mark could comfortably win whichever race Vettel is suspended for, and the reserve driver come 2nd.

:rolleyes:

On the assumption that Vettel is as good as he appears to be, and Alonso potentially being better than Webber and most other drivers, suspending him and him losing out on 25 points could affect the WDC.
 
It was racing, it was just that if you believe exactly what was said, Webber had turned his engine down and was looking after fuel/tyres which is what Vettel was supposed to be doing - so was caught unaware shall we say, so I guess a cheap shot.

That being said, Id have thought Webber wouldn't have been naieve enough to just carry on regardless.

Id have hit the TURBO BOOST button and made it as difficult as supremely possible for him :D
 
In my view, there are 2 very seperate events. Vettel catching Webber, and then Vettel fighting with, passing, and then pulling away from Webber. One of them was caused by Vettel ignoring team orders, but could have easily been caused by any other reason (SC, bodged pit stop, running wide, etc), while the other was a race.

Do you think Webber would have reacted as he did, if he felt it was down to a fair race and not JUST ignoring team orders?
 
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