Associate
Newbie here, and tbh last place I expected to come looking for some help, but I arrived on this forum when searching for some ideas for a replacement set of gates and some fencing for my house. I’d seen an excellent thread on here from @Martynt74 and all the advice he got, so thought I would try and see if I could get some help too. Apologies in advance for the length of this - a picture would indeed paint a thousand words!
We had a fence and both a double gate (for cars to drive through) and side entry gate installed a few years after we moved into our house in 1999, and it is now well overdue replacement. The intention is to replace with a simple continuous feather-edge board fence, similar to what we currently have, and replace the gates with more substantial ones than what we currently have, but still feather-edge, so externally it looks almost like a clean run of feather-edge fencing. OK, not fancy, but it would be in keeping with other properties around. We did consider other designs, but in the end we settled with simple. We hope for the new fencing to last 15+ years.
My intention is to build everything from scratch myself. I have the various tools and reasonable skills to do the work. However, I am not an engineer by training or experience, so would really like some input on my thoughts to sense check what I am planning!
For the actual timber frames of the gate, I am undecided on the material. The side gate is approximately 890mm (2’11”) wide, and the double gates are approximately 1290mm (4’3”) wide each. The fence is 1800mm (6’) tall. I could go with CLS treated timber, or go fancy with Accoya. I suspect I may go somewhere in between, maybe with some larch that has been cut to size and then pressure treated? I am going to reuse the original concrete posts that were installed as the main supports, so there will be no buried timber. My plan would be for all gates to have a top, middle and bottom ledge. The top and bottom ledges I currently plan on being inset by about four inches, to avoid having weakened joints at the corners (but see below on joints - one of the big questions!). All the gates will be feather-edged over the frame, with no rebating, so all structural timber can be same depth. For the side gate, I’m thinking 4”x2” should be adequate for the stiles, ledges and braces? For the larger gates, I am thinking 4”x2” for the stiles and braces, but because of the size and weight of these gates, maybe 6”x2” ledges? Is this all reasonable, or does the timber need to be bigger? I may use jockey wheels on both the large gates.
Having sketched the gate plans to scale, on the large gates I am wondering whether they need a middle stile? When the braces (from bottom and middle ledges) are drawn in at 40 degrees from vertical, they reach the corresponding ledges above at only just over half way (about 690-700mm from hinge side) across. With a middle stile, I could repeat braces, so there would be four braces, probably at around 35 degrees, but that doesn’t look right! Or, do I forget the middle stile, and do a single brace from bottom corner (hinge side) through to the top ledge at the correct angle, either lapped through the middle ledge, or stopped under the middle ledge and continued from the top of the middle ledge to the top ledge? All braces would be 1/5th cut in to the ledges for extra strength, rather than just sitting between in simple compression.
Now for the big question I need help with, which will have the biggest impact on the gate construction overall - what type of joints? I have seen plenty of references in forums like this as well as videos online to half-lap joints. On the plus side, much easier all round, and I have access to a good bandsaw with an 8” clearance, so more than enough to make the various cuts needed an absolute doddle, especially if I forewent the inset proposal above and just kept the frames half-lapped at the corners. But especially with the larger gates, even with the feather-edge cladding covering top to bottom on the outside of the frame (providing extra rigidity), will half-lap joints be strong enough? I know the gold standard is probably wedged through mortice and tenon joints, but with at least 18 mortices to cut, even with a chisel morticer which I may also be able to access, that is a good deal of wood munching!
So to summarise, my queries are:
1. Type of timber (CLS, Accoya, Larch etc.)?
2. Size of timber in various locations (4”x2”, 6”x2”, other etc.)?
3. Type of joints (half-lap, mortice and tenon, or something else)?
4. Bracing on larger gates?
Any thoughts gratefully received!
We had a fence and both a double gate (for cars to drive through) and side entry gate installed a few years after we moved into our house in 1999, and it is now well overdue replacement. The intention is to replace with a simple continuous feather-edge board fence, similar to what we currently have, and replace the gates with more substantial ones than what we currently have, but still feather-edge, so externally it looks almost like a clean run of feather-edge fencing. OK, not fancy, but it would be in keeping with other properties around. We did consider other designs, but in the end we settled with simple. We hope for the new fencing to last 15+ years.
My intention is to build everything from scratch myself. I have the various tools and reasonable skills to do the work. However, I am not an engineer by training or experience, so would really like some input on my thoughts to sense check what I am planning!
For the actual timber frames of the gate, I am undecided on the material. The side gate is approximately 890mm (2’11”) wide, and the double gates are approximately 1290mm (4’3”) wide each. The fence is 1800mm (6’) tall. I could go with CLS treated timber, or go fancy with Accoya. I suspect I may go somewhere in between, maybe with some larch that has been cut to size and then pressure treated? I am going to reuse the original concrete posts that were installed as the main supports, so there will be no buried timber. My plan would be for all gates to have a top, middle and bottom ledge. The top and bottom ledges I currently plan on being inset by about four inches, to avoid having weakened joints at the corners (but see below on joints - one of the big questions!). All the gates will be feather-edged over the frame, with no rebating, so all structural timber can be same depth. For the side gate, I’m thinking 4”x2” should be adequate for the stiles, ledges and braces? For the larger gates, I am thinking 4”x2” for the stiles and braces, but because of the size and weight of these gates, maybe 6”x2” ledges? Is this all reasonable, or does the timber need to be bigger? I may use jockey wheels on both the large gates.
Having sketched the gate plans to scale, on the large gates I am wondering whether they need a middle stile? When the braces (from bottom and middle ledges) are drawn in at 40 degrees from vertical, they reach the corresponding ledges above at only just over half way (about 690-700mm from hinge side) across. With a middle stile, I could repeat braces, so there would be four braces, probably at around 35 degrees, but that doesn’t look right! Or, do I forget the middle stile, and do a single brace from bottom corner (hinge side) through to the top ledge at the correct angle, either lapped through the middle ledge, or stopped under the middle ledge and continued from the top of the middle ledge to the top ledge? All braces would be 1/5th cut in to the ledges for extra strength, rather than just sitting between in simple compression.
Now for the big question I need help with, which will have the biggest impact on the gate construction overall - what type of joints? I have seen plenty of references in forums like this as well as videos online to half-lap joints. On the plus side, much easier all round, and I have access to a good bandsaw with an 8” clearance, so more than enough to make the various cuts needed an absolute doddle, especially if I forewent the inset proposal above and just kept the frames half-lapped at the corners. But especially with the larger gates, even with the feather-edge cladding covering top to bottom on the outside of the frame (providing extra rigidity), will half-lap joints be strong enough? I know the gold standard is probably wedged through mortice and tenon joints, but with at least 18 mortices to cut, even with a chisel morticer which I may also be able to access, that is a good deal of wood munching!
So to summarise, my queries are:
1. Type of timber (CLS, Accoya, Larch etc.)?
2. Size of timber in various locations (4”x2”, 6”x2”, other etc.)?
3. Type of joints (half-lap, mortice and tenon, or something else)?
4. Bracing on larger gates?
Any thoughts gratefully received!