Replacement for Chip n Pin?

[iv-tecman]

Instead of chip n pin, you can now sign up for a trial finger print paying system. So, instead of a thief following you and watching you type in your number, and then nicking your card to use it, the thief will now have to mug you, and cut your finger off..

All joking aside, with this system you can pay without cards, no pins, and you don’t even need your cards on you. Would this cut down on opportunists? I mean, the idea of cutting your finger off is a little remote, as the cashier would perhaps notice that you were using a severed finger.

“Erm yes, its my wifes “old” finger, and I asked before I cut it off before I paid for this XBOX 360”.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4784744.stm

I am not a fan of chip n pin as I felt the system imposed a new type of security that is, in truth no more secure then signing, as I’ve watched over shoppers as they type in their pins, I can give you a handful of pins I’ve seen over the past few weeks, as many can visualise a pin keypad, so would finger printing prevent theft from other bankers accounts?

Edit - correct a spelling error..

 

[iv-tecman]

WRT cutting your finger off, I heard some scanners need a pulse or sumink, would be way cool to Back To The Future II though.

I got the image of cutting your finger off from Demolition Man. I wouldn't have thought cutting your finger off would be a good way to steal money from someone if the system was introduced, but is finger printing systems the way forward?

One has already admitted to taking his mum's card to go shopping... Chip n Pin allows for this, silly system really. I read somewhere, but I can't find it right now that Chip n Pin is only to protect the banks. The card belongs to the bank, and if used by someone who knows your pin, "you" or something has to foot the bill..

the old signature system, most of the time you would be refunded. I'll have to find the document, so as I can re-educate myself on it.

 

[iv-tecman]

The difference now is that its a lot harder for someone to find out your pin without your knowledge.

Under the old system a card could easily be cloned without your knowledge. Cloning chips is nigh on impossible, so as long as you keep your pin secret you're OK.

Obviously if someone coerces your PIN out of you, you're in a position to inform the bank immediately, wheras you may not know your card's been cloned until you get your next bank statement.....

Partly true. I have given that some consideration before. But the machines in shops are easy to overlook, and then the thief just following you down the road, in hope of picking your pocket..

Perhaps a little paraniod, as it hasn't happened to me - yet. And I'm not actually in support of finger printing. I just read the article and thought it might make an intresting debate.

However, I'm not a big fan of chip n pin. The system has flaws, the biggest I feel are the cashiers not allowing you a place to type your pin in without half a Q behind you watching over.

I never feel comfortable doing this, and try and hide my key presses best I can.

 

[iv-tecman]

But do you agree its still more secure than signing?

Certainly at my local supermarket, the chip and pin machine is facing away from the queue and is well shielded, it would be extremely hard for anyone behind me in the queue to see my pin.

Ah yeah.. It is "better" then signing, but I do remember reading there was a hidden agenda into chip n pin. Banks offloading loses to the customer or shop. I think now, after 14th feb, any shop that still excepts a signature is liable for any loss due to a stolen card, and not the bank, unless the card is a special sign for card that can be requested. For those who cannot remember four digit codes etc..

Doesn't stop online transactions either. Card can still be stolen, and used as a "customer not present" transaction. All you need is an old bank statement... Reason I "never" bin mine, and shread all other important information...

however, I never fully supported the system as being "the" safe way to shop. and I shall never support it either, as it isn't. It has lured many into a false sense.

 

[iv-tecman]

Chip 'n' Pin is no more secure than Signitures, it stops the cards being skimmed, but so would any verification method that used a coded chip.

With a signiture, shops would have to keep the slips for years, adn if you saw an item on your statement you didn't pay for, you could go and check the signature slip.



With Chip ‘n’ Pin, there is no audit trail, banks just have to say “this system is more secure, it was authorised by your PIN, so it must have been you, or You let someone else have the number.”



They just shift the blame from banks having to pay for fraudulently used transactions, to the account holder who let someone see them type the number in.

Pretty much what I've read. I don't know what else "would" be a secure system. after all thieves will do anything if they want your money... But chip n pin isn't the secure systems banks have lead us all to believe.

It is only to protect the bank, and not the consumer - mostly..

 

[iv-tecman]

Statistics suggest that it is more secure, with fraud down by 13% since its introduction.

Only for high street transactions. Don't have the figures for online, but reports sugguest this has now started to increase, as more crooks turn to online, or customer not present fraud.

In some ways all this has done is shifted the problem to another area... Or perhaps not.

 

[iv-tecman]

How is it less secure?

1) The system checks the PIN. Till tarts - excuse me, point of sale assistants - hardly ever check signatures.
2) The PIN is not on the card, the signature is. You can't casually pinch the card and learn the signature or bank on point 1) coming into play.

No, I don't think chip n pin is "less" secure, as you're right. But it's not the ultra secure systems the banks have advertised the system as... False sense is worse then keeping guard I feel.

nothing has been done to say "keep it safe" and "watch who is watching" when typing your pin. Only the other day in Tesco I had to tell someone to "back off" as I typed my pin in. He was standing almost on top of me..

I do feel in-secure with chip n pin, as the problem is that now they can follow you, nick your card and beat the pin out of you. Now I'll put up a fight, but three - four against one isn't going to work, and I worry about my mum as she cannot fend off attacks. Not to say this will happen.

Chip n pin is for banks to offload the fraud to the shop only I feel...

 

[iv-tecman]

Excellent posting there treefrog. I agree that “just” because many on this forum are intelligent enough, or even diligent at protecting their pin, doesn’t mean the rest of the populace is as well. You cannot assume that “everyone” or near as damn it everyone is careful as to how they enter their pin.

I make a point of standing well back when I stand in a line to pay for goods, and you’d be surprised how many enter their pins, with little thought as to who is watching. Can you visualise a keypad? Easy to then remember a string of four digits.

When I enter a pin, I make the point to look around my shoulders, and asking anyone who is too close to please back away a little (politely of cause). The system isn’t secure, and can easily be compromised by anyone as rightfully said. If they have the will to look for your pin, and have the same will to hurt you, then it’s easy for them – IF YOU ARE NOT CAREFUL.

Like I have said, and I’ll reiterate this – I never supported the move to chip n pin, as I felt it is just a way for the banks to cover their loses by putting the onus on the card holder. The card after all is the property of the bank, and is provided under a T & C agreement you agree to when you take hold of the card.

Pin numbers need to be GIVEN, whereas a signature can be duplicated easily. Who’s to say my card is stolen and used by signature? I could have even done it, and fibbed about the transaction and got a full refund. CCTV etc might catch me out, but in the end, it’s shop owner against whoever signed, and the banks have historically lost when claims like these are made.

With a pin number they just simply turn this around saying – Pins cannot be guessed, cannot be copied, and therefore “you” must have consented to the purchase. Case lost to the consumer, fraud case to the bank won, not reported. Fraud comes down, consumer looses out.

Pins can be read from the card using card readers, but your everyday opportunist isn’t going to have this type of equipment, therefore highly organised criminals are now going high tech. In effort to combat banks looses, I feel the consumer has now lost as criminals are now finding more avant-garde ways of stealing from you.

Then there is still the issue of thugs, and mugging, as previously explained by trreefrog. I’m sorry, but chip n pin is faster to use in the shops, but isn’t as secure as it’s made out to be.