Rugby union?

tlrBeta · 2 Nov 2019 at 11:40

SA game plan worked, England couldnt play their game.

SA played well, England not great, they couldn't calm the nerves....but was it due to SA?

Some things didnt go Englands way...the Sinkler KO for me was big and so unlucky. He must be so upset, I can't imagine it.

That said, SA deserved it on the day

old gamer · 2 Nov 2019 at 11:46

Not good enough on the day but beating all three big southern hemisphere in a few weeks was a tall order for England

Skillmister · 2 Nov 2019 at 11:48

regulus said:
Lots of posts here from last week after the AB game that did not age too well ...

So people should never make comments incase with hindsight they are incorrect?

Given our play in the last 2 matches vs how SA played in their last couple we should have won. But when you're making basic handling errors you're not going to win a final as proven today.

CHokKA · 2 Nov 2019 at 11:56

Maundie said:
So you quote a post were I say England were poor and peaked in the semi's and stated that I attributed the entire loss to the ref, had the 1st try been correctly ruled out the 2nd may not have been scored but also England would never have caught them on the scoreboard anyway so would've still lost as they never looked threatening themselves, but as your clearly unable to read plain English yeah it's all the refs fault

Have your rolleyes back dude :rolleyes:

You contradict yourself by saying they played poorly and made mistakes because you go on to say that if one try out of two had been disallowed the game would have gone differently and ended up in England's favour? Yeah, sure it would have!

GIBURROWS · 2 Nov 2019 at 12:00

South Africa beat England the same way England beat the All Blacks by not letting them play their way, credit to South Africa as I thought England would be able to beat them quite comfortably after watching them all tournament but England should have had a plan B to counteract South Africa.

regulus · 2 Nov 2019 at 12:05

Skillmister said:
So people should never make comments incase with hindsight they are incorrect?

Given our play in the last 2 matches vs how SA played in their last couple we should have won. But when you're making basic handling errors you're not going to win a final as proven today.

I don't care in the slightest if people insinuate a week in advance that the game is a formality.

I simply enjoy pointing it out after the fact.

Apart from the 26 phase move, SA never looked in danger losing this match. Regardless of what happened whenever ago in the past.

regulus · 2 Nov 2019 at 12:09

Can't wait for the BBC Sport comments and the Welsh, Scottish and Irish fans to pull down the English pants and go in dry.

And for me to take my punishment at work on Monday

Abraxaz1 · 2 Nov 2019 at 13:17

Gone are the days where flowing off loading rugby won games, now it just get as big as possible and prevent the other team from doing anything.

Boring rugby will not increase the sports standing in the world.

tlrBeta · 2 Nov 2019 at 13:33

Abraxaz1 said:
Gone are the days where flowing off loading rugby won games, now it just get as big as possible and prevent the other team from doing anything.

Boring rugby will not increase the sports standing in the world.

I guess you have missed a lot of this world cup then?

tom_nieto · 2 Nov 2019 at 13:33

Abraxaz1 said:
Gone are the days where flowing off loading rugby won games, now it just get as big as possible and prevent the other team from doing anything.

Boring rugby will not increase the sports standing in the world.

Did you see the England semi final and the whole of Japan's world cup campaign? Some excellent rugby played throughout the tournament which has proven that size is not everything. Faf de Klerk and Cheslin Kolbe are both 5'7".

dodg3rman · 2 Nov 2019 at 13:49

The real rugby fans who understand and are involved in rugby will just say 'Well done the Boks you played better than us and deserved it'

Those that migrate from other sports (im looking at you football) will whine and whinge and moan cos thats what they do , always will.

We dont need to analyse it like Quincy , its done and they are champions , move on

Abraxaz1 · 2 Nov 2019 at 14:19

I'm not saying south Africa didn't deserve it. They played a game plan and dominated.

What I'm complaining about is the game plan is so negative, it sucks the life out of a game.

And I'm worried that every other nation will copy it.

As for Japan yes they had a great tournament but lost to a team that played so negative. Scrum and mauled them of the field.

End of the day its coming down to who has the biggest genetic advantage.

Countries like Japan will never have a chance whilst teams like south Africa can destroy the breakdown without being pinged

CHokKA · 2 Nov 2019 at 15:33

Abraxaz1 said:
I'm not saying south Africa didn't deserve it. They played a game plan and dominated.

What I'm complaining about is the game plan is so negative, it sucks the life out of a game.

And I'm worried that every other nation will copy it.

As for Japan yes they had a great tournament but lost to a team that played so negative. Scrum and mauled them of the field.

End of the day its coming down to who has the biggest genetic advantage.

Countries like Japan will never have a chance whilst teams like south Africa can destroy the breakdown without being pinged

It wasn't size that created the opportunity for the final try to be scored. It was one of the smallest players on the field that did that with his ability to break a tackle and run through the defenders. And Faf De Klerk, also small, directed the show from start to finish and that's how the game was won.

There have always been big players in Rugby, but if a small player breaks past them, there's absolutely no chance go catch them. I prefer the multi-faceted game as it is now. Scrums, mauls, kicks, it makes for a much more exciting match.

PlacidCasual · 2 Nov 2019 at 15:49

Wales and Ireland have relied on almost entirely negative game plans for the last 5 years much like South Africa, only less successfully. But where skill levels and decision making are high enough all game rugby is possible. Look at New Zealand they are probably the best team in the World although plainly not invincible and play an all skills game. England are trying to reach Kiwi skill levels of play not South African ones.

Yadda · 2 Nov 2019 at 16:08

PlacidCasual said:
Wales and Ireland have relied on almost entirely negative game plans for the last 5 years much like South Africa, only less successfully. But where skill levels and decision making are high enough all game rugby is possible. Look at New Zealand they are probably the best team in the World although plainly not invincible and play an all skills game. England are trying to reach Kiwi skill levels of play not South African ones.

It would be a good start though.

CHokKA · 2 Nov 2019 at 18:29

PlacidCasual said:
Wales and Ireland have relied on almost entirely negative game plans for the last 5 years much like South Africa, only less successfully. But where skill levels and decision making are high enough all game rugby is possible. Look at New Zealand they are probably the best team in the World although plainly not invincible and play an all skills game. England are trying to reach Kiwi skill levels of play not South African ones.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you on this one. What skills were SA lacking in today? Because from what I watched, they were very good in all aspects of the game. That's why they won today. And what do you mean about negative game plans? The game plan against Wales was to kick the ball and chase, and it paid off. Today it was a different game plan against a different team and it paid off again. And won them the World Cup.

PlacidCasual · 2 Nov 2019 at 18:52

South Africa are excellent but they’re not aiming for the kind of skill based game the Kiwis are. As seen in their group match particularly in the first half where SA had all the dominance but NZ took all the chances, good decisions and excellent skills.

I say negative insofar as they look to nullify teams and kick penalties and take opportunities delivered from defensive pressure, rather than manufacture chances from attacking play. Although both of their late tries were excellent but were taken whilst England were chasing the game and very loose.

Stu · 2 Nov 2019 at 23:50

Gutted about the result today, SA were tidy and England lacked all precision. The passing was truly awful, especially Young's. I don't think the ref was great, and the first SA try definitely included a forward pass.

Still find it bizarre that we were so dominated in the scrum... We struggled more than the Japanese and Welsh packs from the previous 2 games... Makes me think something was going on that the ref totally missed.

CHokKA · 3 Nov 2019 at 07:50

Stu said:
Makes me think something was going on that the ref totally missed.

What? For the entire game? Are you serious? England made loads of mistakes, they were sloppy and they didn't properly come together until later during the second half where they managed to win a scrum, but that was one out of perhaps two or three times where it looked like they were threatening. The rest of the game they looked un-coordinated and full of handling errors, and their game was played poorly. I'm sorry, but I don't think you can blame the refs. England looked nervous and worried for the entire game. Just look at the posts in here from people posting after the kickoff. They were saying things like "settle down" and "England look nervy", as well as highlighting that there were too many mistakes. Blaming the ref is just an excuse at this point.

mid_gen · 3 Nov 2019 at 09:10

Sometimes you just get a mismatch between front rowers. Cole has never been anything more than a competent scrummager, even in his prime, and he just got dismantled by the Beast. Likewise Mako has never been an excellent scrummager. Put a front row that is just competent versus a very powerful and experienced bokke pack and that's what happens.

Marler is our best scrummaging prop, made a huge difference when he came on. Sinckler isn't as gnarled and experienced as some but he has the power to stand up to Beast...when he went off and our scrum fell apart it rattled some of our players and they never recovered.

Daly isn't a fullback, at least not against teams that are going to attack him with high balls and an aggressive chase. Against the boks we needed a rock like Brown claiming those bombs. I think we need to focus on Watson at 15, he has all the attributes for it. May and Nowell on the wings. Ibitoye is rapidly improving for us at quins and could be pushing for a spot soon. Youngs has been utter gash the whole tournament so hopefully he will get the axe first up. Heinz, Robson, Spencer are all better options. The pack is pretty solid, although some of old guard like Cole will be retired.

Still, a good tournament for us. We need to sort out the big game mentality though, get more animals that thrive on the big games like Itoje, Farrell, Underhill, Curry. Lose the flakes like Daly.