Ryzen 7 5800X3d vs Ryzen 7 7700 vs i5 13600KF

[GoogalyMoogaly]

So my 8700K is getting on a bit and is a bit of a disappointing OCer (4.8GHz, couldn't get 4.9GHz with 1.3v and temps are high enough as it is).

So I've been considering the options in the title. They'd all cost similar money.
As I see it...

Ryzen 7 5800X3D is decent enough but it's all EOL now and it's performance has probably been surpassed by multiple options now. Plus you can't OC it or tweak it in many ways really.
Ryzen 7 7700 seems OK and would be DDR5 so that's nice. Being AMD there might be a nice upgrade path without having to change the motherboard. However to fit in with the price of the others I'd have to go with 16GB RAM instead of 32GB. Also, the 7700 would really be a stop gap for the 7800X3D (do we know if they're overclockable this time?), so that feels like a bit of a waste.
i5 13600KF seems from the incredibly small amount of research I've done that this might be the fastest overall and best at gaming? Downside here is that to fit in with this budget I'd go Z690 with DDR4, old tech but lets face it with Intel was there really much chance any of it would be reusable? I've probably done more Intel builds than AMD in the past though so in a way it feels a bit dull.

To me the obvious one to rule out is the 5800X3D, despite all the hype it seems to have had in the past it's probably not a good platform to move to now.
So that leaves the 7700 and the 13600KF. Feels like the 7700 setup is more futureproof with more upgrade possibilities but with the downside that the 7700 + 16GB DDR5 might not be as good as the 13600KF with 32GB DDR4.

Am I way off here?

I am a little confused with how the new Ryzen chips work, one review seemed to suggest they boost until they hit 95ºC (or a power limit) but other reviews didn't seem to show signs of them hitting 95ºC. Have I misunderstood something here?

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

I assume you're only gaming?

How often do you plan to upgrade the CPU?

I haven't seen many articles on 16Gbit 8GB DDR5 sticks yet, but with DDR4 you can lose quite a lot of performance and in Hardware Unboxed's testing, they lost up to 7% (depends on the game), so I'm not sure I'd recommend this option. I'd even go as far as suggesting that a 7600 with 32GB may be faster than a 7700 with 16Gbit 8GB sticks.

Yeah, that's a consideration too, dropping down a CPU model and upping the RAM...

I wouldn't say I only game, I do a bit of this and that (like video encoding) but it will mostly be used for gaming.
As for how often I'd plan on upgrading the CPU, I'm not really sure, I guess it depends on how it goes. What becomes available, at what price and how does the 7700 (or X3D chip if I upgrade) compare.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

For mixed work, the 13500 with a middle of the road B760 board might be a good choice for you, the 8 E-cores help it power through this kind of thing and it still performs well for games. Though, you might find it having only 6 P-cores off-putting...

You can't OC on a B760 board can you? Has that changed recently?

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

the 7700 is not really an option right now, R5 5800X3d or i5 13600KF
DDR5 is much more adorable now But there will still be improvements. the question is how hold long do you plan to hold the new chip for and what do you have right now.

if this is a stop gap and you have AM4 then get the 5800X3d no questions asked. if you moving from an old socket but only planning on keeping the system for a year then 5800X3d or 13600KF what ever works out the cheapest.
If you plan to keep the socket and or chip for a long ass time then DDR5 is the way to go and with that Ryzen 7 7700 or i5 13600KF

Currently have a i7 8700k so no can't just drop in a 5800X3D it'd have to be a build just for it.

As for how long I'd be keeping it, I guess that sort of depends on what happens in the future and how it holds up. If we only get small increments I guess it could last a while, if there's a big jump (e.g. 3D VCache across the board) then it might feel like it needs updating sooner. I mean currently I'm about to retire a 4770K and with this upgrade a 3930K, so it's not unheard of that I'll hold on to it for a while (I have a sort of hand-me-down system where I shuffle stuff down into less used PCs).
I am tempted to wait for the new X3D chips, but I do worry that they'll be expensive or run hot or won't be OC-able (not the end of the world, but where's the fun in that). Maybe I skip this generation of X3D chips and wait for an 8000 series X3D chip (get a bit more use out of the 7700) assuming they be compatible with AM5 and the current chipsets.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

I mean I'm not a great OCer so it's not the end of the world for me. I just liked that it was an option for people with a bit of knowledge and the inclination to put the effort in and they they could get a bit of extra performance out of it (which probably doesn't make a huge difference outside of benchmarking).

I am thinking I might not bother with the X3D chips this gen. It will depend a bit on price (also heat as that'll determine if I need a new cooler) but I figure that sure you get a bit more performance in gaming but from the reviews I've been seeing suggest that CPU performance gap in games closes up with the better CPUs at 4K anyway. Maybe in a generation or 2 when GPUs handle 4K better it'll be worth upgrading the CPU.

I think I'm leaning towards the AMD setup just for something a bit different (for me). Trying to decide if it's worth stretching to 32GB RAM or go with 16GB for now and worry about upgrading later on.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

I don't really have a budget I'm just trying to keep the cost down, which is both nice and annoying. Annoying because there's nothing to really stop me going "OK then, let's get 32GB RAM instead".
I started off with the 5800X3D build for £625 (CPU + MOBO +RAM).
Then when I spec'd the Z690 13600KF build it jumped up to £690.
Now if I go with the 7700 build it's up to about £715, but at least I'm getting a MOBO that should last and 32GB DDR5.

That said I do think that here and now the 13600KF is the better chip so I've not ruled that out but I am tempted to go with the AMD setup.
I'm tempted to wait for the 3D Cache chips but I suspect they'll be more than I want to spend, the only hope would be that they bring the price of the other chips (inc. 7700) down.

One question about RAM, for an AMD setup do I need to lookout for RAM that supports EXPO or do most motherboards support XMP even on AMD?

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

What games do you want to upgrade for & what's your fps/settings targets? That's a very important point I don't see raised, because the numbers (AMD vs Intel) are way different depending on it.

I don't really know what games I'll be playing, I just want to be ready for what may come but there are still older games I've not gotten around to (Witcher 3, Skyrim, Cyberpunk).
I do intend to play at 4K and would like to be getting 100+ fps as much as possible. I've got a 7900 XT to go with it.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

In your case it matters a little less right now because the 7900 XT is not going to be have excessive FPS once you turn RT on, so the CPU power won't be as needed as with Nvidia (plus the green team also has a higher CPU overhead). Actually I'd say that an R5 7600 would be enough in your case, and upgrade to a v-cache model a few years down the line once you also upgrade the GPU.

Oh yeah I wasn't expecting to play with RT on (might try it out to see what it looks like).
I did consider the 7600 but after all this time to be buying a 6c/12t CPU is just disappointing as they've been around for 10 years or so now?
I did consider the 7900 but that seems overkill, would've nicely matched the GPU naming though!

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

It's more important to think in terms of actual results rather than "6 core vs 8 core" etc. In actual practice very very few current games gain anything from 2 extra cores, and even then we're talking 10-15% performance difference or so, a minor difference (see below an example).
The 12/16 core AMD chips are not recommended for gaming because their dual-CCD nature actually has issues sometimes and can lead to worse performance. Usually though it just does nothing for you (except having cost more).

I know you're right, but it just doesn't feel much like progression when you're buying the same cores/threads as you were a decade ago. And £100 is a lot just to get 2 more cores just to make it feel better.

I'm not even sure if I'll upgrade this setup once I get it. CPUs seem to last a lot longer than GPUs (as far as gaming performance goes), so I might just keep it a few years and then replace everything, get all the new motherboard tech too.