See this guy gets it.
- Thread starter Edward78
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I would say it’s down to what people know. If it was pushed more on devices it would be used more.
Let’s not forget out of the box support for applications. It’s getting better though.
Let’s not forget out of the box support for applications. It’s getting better though.
It's very simple, really.
1. People just don't care.
2. It doesn't come pre-installed and...
3. When it does come pre-installed it does things too differently to what people are used to.
MS and Apple have set the standards and Linux, by and large, operates differently. Even e.g. Ubuntu gives the user a lot of control in comparison to Windows or Mac systems: people don't want to have that level of responsibility, they just want things to work and for problems to be automatically and instantly sorted out for them - which is totally understandable.
1. People just don't care.
2. It doesn't come pre-installed and...
3. When it does come pre-installed it does things too differently to what people are used to.
MS and Apple have set the standards and Linux, by and large, operates differently. Even e.g. Ubuntu gives the user a lot of control in comparison to Windows or Mac systems: people don't want to have that level of responsibility, they just want things to work and for problems to be automatically and instantly sorted out for them - which is totally understandable.
Soldato
20 years i've used Linux on and off in the desktop/server world and given the choice i will always choose MS, not because its always better for the job but because i dont need to read a ton of info on dependency or install procedures. its usually run exe as admin > next > "simple decision" > next >complete.
with linux is it apt-get, sorry sudo apt-get, or is it git pull, or maybe make install etc etc.
And then the battle of updating various bits that fall out of the repo's or your running an out of date repo because you let a few updates lapse. - i just want to update/secure elastic search i dont need to know what it had for breakfast to make it work
The freedom Linux gives its developers in regards to how they manage/create there applications is also its down fall imo, theres just to much inconsistency across the board. if you fall into a very specific sector i can imagine its awesome but when you manage the odd server here and there its just added ball ache for no gain.
To this day i still find myself googling the simplest of procedures that would take me 30seconds on a MS system. ie ssl certificates
sorry thats more of a Server rant vs Desktop, Linux needs MS Office to be viable imo, gaming would come next but without decent LOB app support its never going to gain much traction. Or those apps all become web based negating the underlining OS requirements but then its a bit of a hollow victory for linux
with linux is it apt-get, sorry sudo apt-get, or is it git pull, or maybe make install etc etc.
And then the battle of updating various bits that fall out of the repo's or your running an out of date repo because you let a few updates lapse. - i just want to update/secure elastic search i dont need to know what it had for breakfast to make it work
The freedom Linux gives its developers in regards to how they manage/create there applications is also its down fall imo, theres just to much inconsistency across the board. if you fall into a very specific sector i can imagine its awesome but when you manage the odd server here and there its just added ball ache for no gain.
To this day i still find myself googling the simplest of procedures that would take me 30seconds on a MS system. ie ssl certificates
sorry thats more of a Server rant vs Desktop, Linux needs MS Office to be viable imo, gaming would come next but without decent LOB app support its never going to gain much traction. Or those apps all become web based negating the underlining OS requirements but then its a bit of a hollow victory for linux
Soldato
I can support what @LizardKing mentions here as my day job is supporting hundreds of windows users and the infrastructure linking them up. I concluded a long time ago that if people struggle to use a simple OS like Windows with all the plethora of materials out there to empower them, the step to something like *nix/linux is too much to ask.
I dip into my raspberry pi projects and find even on there it has lots of swings and roundabout moments and no wonder a person with shallow computer skills is going to drop it like a stone. It has its place and is really powerful but it really suits the people that understand the under the hood elements or people that just use it day to day. Its not something you can use sporadically.
I dip into my raspberry pi projects and find even on there it has lots of swings and roundabout moments and no wonder a person with shallow computer skills is going to drop it like a stone. It has its place and is really powerful but it really suits the people that understand the under the hood elements or people that just use it day to day. Its not something you can use sporadically.
Commissario
I'm only a few minutes into the video and one thing he hasn't touched on yet.
There are too many different Linux distributions which all look different.
There's simply too much choice. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen threads all over the place asking what distro to use where the answer is "the one that suits you the best" or something like that. Without trying them, nobody knows what they like best.
With Windows, all computers look the same. All Macs look the same. Consistency is important.
The Linux desktop doesn't have consistency, I think that's the biggest problem.
There are too many different Linux distributions which all look different.
There's simply too much choice. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen threads all over the place asking what distro to use where the answer is "the one that suits you the best" or something like that. Without trying them, nobody knows what they like best.
With Windows, all computers look the same. All Macs look the same. Consistency is important.
The Linux desktop doesn't have consistency, I think that's the biggest problem.
This too.
Ive been looking at alternatives to windows 10 for my new build.
I LIKE windows 7. Its the right balance if you ask me and windows 10 just feels like a bloated clunky upgrade.
Unfortunately, after much looking, it seems windows 10 is really the only option for the pure ease of use factor, despite ubuntu being damn close the gap isnt closed yet.
I LIKE windows 7. Its the right balance if you ask me and windows 10 just feels like a bloated clunky upgrade.
Unfortunately, after much looking, it seems windows 10 is really the only option for the pure ease of use factor, despite ubuntu being damn close the gap isnt closed yet.
Does the side panel bother you or do you mean software choices?
Soldato
Since what 2015? with windows its been a steady march towards use 10 or get lost. This maybe annoying but it forces all the feet draggers to tow the line, no I dont like it, but then again I dont want tens of variations of installers and flavours to complicate the mess that other users get themselves in. Even windows updates break things so what chance have you when the user can (try to) install bloat/garbage/drivers - supporting everything is a mess so I can understand why they take the flexibility away albeit at a price usually for the technical people that know what they are doing (most of the time)! 
Ubuntu is not close. There's still a big gap between Ubuntu and Windows. And it's doubtful whether this gap will ever be closed.
1. Software installation - people are used to going to a software company's site, downloading the .exe and double clicking. That's all they have to do, that's all they want to do. People would have to retrain themselves to go to a package manager or even - gasp - learn some terminal commands. And what if the package they want isn't in the repo? Then what? Is one going to teach them how to add a PPA or install the dependencies to get their .deb running? By then they're already bored and screaming to go back to Windows.
2. Gaming. There's still a huge way to go before Ubuntu has anything like the compatibility of Windows. Proton goes some way towards solving this, but only some. There are still loads of mainstream games that don't work.
3. MS Office. It is vital to MS that they retain their position as market leaders. Libre Office is good, but it falls over in its compatibility the more you try to do with it. Ever tried creating a Libre document with loads of graphs, tables and footnotes and then opening it in Word? It'll get messed up. This will likely never change since MS will always switch things around to ensure incompatibility. If Libre were 100% compatible with MS Office, why would anyone use MS Office?
4. Stability. Ubuntu is still too easy to break if you don't know what you're doing, especially for newcomers. Impatience, entering the wrong terminal commands, installing things wrongly can all contribute. The first time I installed Ubuntu I broke it twice, I don't even know how. Linux gives people more control and more power than they're used to or understand, and for many people, this can be a bad thing.
5. Compatibility with other software. My wife uses a particular piece of software which is vital to her work. This does not exist in Linux, so it fails out the gate for her. How many other pieces of software must this be the case for? One dreads to think.
In short, Ubuntu is great for people with an interest in Linux, who are learning, whose work is not hampered by it, who have made it work for them and/or who have come back from more advanced distros and want something that just works for their use-cases. But for a lot of people it just won't cut it.
I think I downloaded and tried upwards of 20 .isos till I found the two or three distros that worked for me. And then I had to learn them. Very few people have the time or inclination to do that.
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To be honest the vast number of people are used to going a an app store. Like google play,Apple app store
Agreed!
This too
Don't use *buntu so cant directly comment, Regards stability, I have to disagree. It's very rare I've seen a problem with updating. Yes it has happened but MS has also messed up on that front.
I do agree though that for the novice user it can break easily when messing with things they shouldn't. I guess same could be said for windows too to a degree.
I have to agree on that as Linux dosn't hold your hand like that of windows.
One of the bug bearers of mine is those that spout that Linux is same/like windows when in reality it's vastly different. Then when those users actually try to use Linux they fail miserably and generally blame Linux due to the fact there are very little safe guards in relation to windows to average joe.
Agreed, That's generally the biggest hurdle I feel.
Tricky that kind of agree and disagree, Has been a loooong time since I've had dep problems. To be fair the vast majority of distros have a software installer that installs all need deps that are required. It's when you download something like you say that this then can cause dep issues.
I love Linux, been using it at work and at home for over 20 years. I'd say the desktop is my all-time biggest bugbear. Every damn time I want to install a distribution, I go all around the houses trying to decide which desktop variant to use. I know I can chop and change. Doesn't seem to make any difference, I still spend god knows how long reading up on the state of all the latest offerings. Too much choice leads to analysis paralysis.
Soldato
Because it's too damn annoying.
For reference I've been using Unix/Linux since the mid-80s on AIX 2.2 and I became a qualified Unix Network Engineer in 1989. I "fold" and Linux is faster than Windows for folding so I have three rigs at home that are running Linux Mint, 2 on Mint 18 and one on Mint 20.
With 18, while the install is great at setting up most of the hardware, graphics drivers seem to be a PITA. The download ISO installs an old driver version (390!) and the Driver Manager recommends ones which are only a little newer. To get new ones requires adding additional PPA lists. Nothing tells you this except endless research on forums or websites which are themselves endless rabbit holes of trying to find a "how to" that is even vaguely up to date. As for then overclocking the card, coolbits corrupts Cinnamon and X 9 times out of 10 and fixing that is another rabbit hole of endless web searches. NVidia Preferences don't remember your overclocks so that means writing shell-scripts - something I've always hated doing. Manually downloading Nvidia .run files and the grief of getting to the correct run level to be able to install them is another disaster waiting to happen. I quite like playing with conky though and wish there was a Windows equivalent.
I thought 20 would be better but then found that the Folding software requires Python2 which has been deprecated. Instead of the package manager simply asking if I want to get and install the dependencies it just refuses to install anything. Running command lines with force-depends seems to be utterly pointless. And coolbits killed Cinnamon permanently on this one leaving me using some other hideous display manager that has all the charm of OS/2 Warp.
Linux still goes wrong too often and is a 'mare to fix. Until it has an easier and more reliable administration experience, ordinary users will maybe try it but quickly desert it.
For reference I've been using Unix/Linux since the mid-80s on AIX 2.2 and I became a qualified Unix Network Engineer in 1989. I "fold" and Linux is faster than Windows for folding so I have three rigs at home that are running Linux Mint, 2 on Mint 18 and one on Mint 20.
With 18, while the install is great at setting up most of the hardware, graphics drivers seem to be a PITA. The download ISO installs an old driver version (390!) and the Driver Manager recommends ones which are only a little newer. To get new ones requires adding additional PPA lists. Nothing tells you this except endless research on forums or websites which are themselves endless rabbit holes of trying to find a "how to" that is even vaguely up to date. As for then overclocking the card, coolbits corrupts Cinnamon and X 9 times out of 10 and fixing that is another rabbit hole of endless web searches. NVidia Preferences don't remember your overclocks so that means writing shell-scripts - something I've always hated doing. Manually downloading Nvidia .run files and the grief of getting to the correct run level to be able to install them is another disaster waiting to happen. I quite like playing with conky though and wish there was a Windows equivalent.
I thought 20 would be better but then found that the Folding software requires Python2 which has been deprecated. Instead of the package manager simply asking if I want to get and install the dependencies it just refuses to install anything. Running command lines with force-depends seems to be utterly pointless. And coolbits killed Cinnamon permanently on this one leaving me using some other hideous display manager that has all the charm of OS/2 Warp.
Linux still goes wrong too often and is a 'mare to fix. Until it has an easier and more reliable administration experience, ordinary users will maybe try it but quickly desert it.
Soldato
I manage a mostly MS estate and we have some linux servers for cyber security stuff.
I try to use it at home on occasion but I get frustrated with what should be simple things like display scaling not having the option between 100% and 200%, if I want to use the inbuilt calendar app with Outlook.com, I had to google for something then run some commands, then readd it as as an exchange calendar to get it to show up.
I have dual monitors and one is in portrait mode, both in Ubuntu and PopOS when I clicked apply it broke how the screens were laid out.
It is simple things like that is why I don't like linux, whereas Windows for me just works, I do not have issues with performance and I do not care about how a start menu looks as I rarely if ever use it.
I try to use it at home on occasion but I get frustrated with what should be simple things like display scaling not having the option between 100% and 200%, if I want to use the inbuilt calendar app with Outlook.com, I had to google for something then run some commands, then readd it as as an exchange calendar to get it to show up.
I have dual monitors and one is in portrait mode, both in Ubuntu and PopOS when I clicked apply it broke how the screens were laid out.
It is simple things like that is why I don't like linux, whereas Windows for me just works, I do not have issues with performance and I do not care about how a start menu looks as I rarely if ever use it.
I use Linux more than Windows now. My laptop only has Linux (Kubuntu) but my main desktop is dual boot between Kubuntu and Windows 10. I only boot into Windows when I am gaming. My games do run on Linux but not 100% and as I have a Windows key I simply dual boot. I use Linux for everything else. The only issue this gives is that once I am booted into Windows for a game then I'll usually stay there for other things.
But I genuinely prefer the way Linux and the KDE Plasma desktop look and work. That may simply be familiarity after a few years. Windows frustrates me now for some things. It's difficult to find settings in Windows, the lack of control over updates is annoying and despite trying to squash notifications I still get things pop up that I don't like. If I get bored with looking at the same screen for too many months I can radically change the look under Linux. For the last few years I've deliberately only bought hardware and software which works on both Windows and Linux. I prefer an all AMD setup due to their open nature (such as AMD GPU drivers in the Kernel). Apart from games, I insist that any licensed software is Linux compatible. For example I have a Jetbrains All Products license which runs on Windows, MacOS and Linux. I won't buy a keyboard or mouse which needs specific drivers for functionality such as remembering DPI. My HP printer is Linux compatible with drivers in the Kernel and it confused me when I first tried to use it in Windows as I'd forgotten I actually had to get the drivers for it in Windows. I hadn't needed to do anything under Linux; it was immediately available to use. So everything is very stable on my system because I make Linux a first class citizen in all choices. Whenever I install a new distro everything "just works" out of the box. I will admit that Linux isn't plain sailing either though, and there are a few setting that simply won't stay after I have set them. I've also had a couple of times over the years where I've broken my install and without enough knowledge to fix it I've just reinstalled it all again.
I guess it begs the question why I wanted to use Linux in the first place; initially it was to help learn the Unix command line which was key to my role at work. More recently it's flexibility to setup and use the OS how I want and the freedom to not care what direction Microsoft takes Windows. I also abhor the monitoring, data mining and advertising built into Windows nowadays. It's not about financial cost for me because I do pay for other software licenses and I do donate periodically to open source projects.
Ultimately, as has been said by Alec, my only use case for Windows now is gaming.
But I genuinely prefer the way Linux and the KDE Plasma desktop look and work. That may simply be familiarity after a few years. Windows frustrates me now for some things. It's difficult to find settings in Windows, the lack of control over updates is annoying and despite trying to squash notifications I still get things pop up that I don't like. If I get bored with looking at the same screen for too many months I can radically change the look under Linux. For the last few years I've deliberately only bought hardware and software which works on both Windows and Linux. I prefer an all AMD setup due to their open nature (such as AMD GPU drivers in the Kernel). Apart from games, I insist that any licensed software is Linux compatible. For example I have a Jetbrains All Products license which runs on Windows, MacOS and Linux. I won't buy a keyboard or mouse which needs specific drivers for functionality such as remembering DPI. My HP printer is Linux compatible with drivers in the Kernel and it confused me when I first tried to use it in Windows as I'd forgotten I actually had to get the drivers for it in Windows. I hadn't needed to do anything under Linux; it was immediately available to use. So everything is very stable on my system because I make Linux a first class citizen in all choices. Whenever I install a new distro everything "just works" out of the box. I will admit that Linux isn't plain sailing either though, and there are a few setting that simply won't stay after I have set them. I've also had a couple of times over the years where I've broken my install and without enough knowledge to fix it I've just reinstalled it all again.
I guess it begs the question why I wanted to use Linux in the first place; initially it was to help learn the Unix command line which was key to my role at work. More recently it's flexibility to setup and use the OS how I want and the freedom to not care what direction Microsoft takes Windows. I also abhor the monitoring, data mining and advertising built into Windows nowadays. It's not about financial cost for me because I do pay for other software licenses and I do donate periodically to open source projects.
Ultimately, as has been said by Alec, my only use case for Windows now is gaming.