Selling footage - third opinions needed!

Russinating · 22 May 2013 at 16:59

We produced a corporate film for a client last year and that's all finished, fine and great (and have some more work upcoming with them).

As always we hold the copyright to the footage and so we've agreed that any press enquiries they receive they'll just forward them on to us and we'll deal with them and charge them as necessary.

A few weeks ago we sold some footage - ~20 raw clips - to a major American news channel. They were happy with our quote which was a decent amount but not silly.

We've now been contacted by one of Brazil's largest news channels but they have no budgets, ever. They want to use parts of our promo film now (after quoting them for what they originally wanted and them declining) without anything from us - ie they'd just download it from YouTube.

And basically we're stuck with what to do. It's no time of ours but we are giving them the right to use our footage which was never intended for this use. But then of course it's good for the client if we say yes and they'd obviously want us to give it away for free all the time for maximum exposure. But then we also just sold less footage for a lot more so it seems morally wrong to then give it away for free in almost an exact same situation.

Our worry is that this Brazilian contact will then 'complain' to the client saying that we wouldn't allow them to use the footage without paying, even though there's no costs or time involved.

What would you do? We need some devil's advocates

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King Damager · 22 May 2013 at 17:37

So I just want to clarify.

You took some footage for a client who paid for it. You own the copyright.

An American channel bought some of the clips from you.

A Brazillian channel contacted you asking to use the clips. They asked for a quote, which you gave, and then said they're not going to pay, we are just downloading it off of YouTube, and screw you?

If this was a UK company I'd be telling them they explicitly don't have permission (I think you'd need to change the rights on your channel on youtube or something - but I don't really know), but there's not much you can do in Brazil I feel. It'd be exceptionally hard I'd imagine to sue them or such like if they use it :S

kd

hyperst · 22 May 2013 at 17:50

What about going to the client that paid for the job and ask them if they would want you to give it to the Brazilian for free?

At least then if they get a complaint you know they will be on your side.

BF-Bert · 22 May 2013 at 18:43

For what purposes did the client commission the film?

Russinating · 22 May 2013 at 22:57

King Damager said:
So I just want to clarify.

You took some footage for a client who paid for it. You own the copyright.

An American channel bought some of the clips from you.

A Brazillian channel contacted you asking to use the clips. They asked for a quote, which you gave, and then said they're not going to pay, we are just downloading it off of YouTube, and screw you?

If this was a UK company I'd be telling them they explicitly don't have permission (I think you'd need to change the rights on your channel on youtube or something - but I don't really know), but there's not much you can do in Brazil I feel. It'd be exceptionally hard I'd imagine to sue them or such like if they use it :S

kd

On the right tracks.

The Brazilian channel initially contacted us with the brief that they wanted enough footage to make a 20 minute documentary on the company. Since quoting on that they've now gone down to "can we just use 3 or 4 minutes from your corporate film" [which is 6 minutes long]. The film is on the client's YouTube channel.

hyperst said:
What about going to the client that paid for the job and ask them if they would want you to give it to the Brazilian for free?

At least then if they get a complaint you know they will be on your side.

They probably will want to give it to them for free. Why wouldn't they? The client originally asked for all our raw footage so that they could hand it out for free to whoever, which is obviously a no-no.

BF-Bert said:
For what purposes did the client commission the film?

Standard promotional film for web use and sending out to prospective customers.

BF-Bert · 23 May 2013 at 00:42

Is it normal for you to hold the copyright on a promotional film?

Russinating · 23 May 2013 at 11:07

Yes, of course it is.

BF-Bert · 23 May 2013 at 14:34

Russinating said:
Yes, of course it is.

Could the client let the Brazilian channel use the promotional video without involving you? They must have a right to distribute.

tom_e · 23 May 2013 at 14:46

You've not really got a choice unless you can be bothered with dragging them through the brazilian courts, as it sounds like they're just going to do what they want regardless.

Russinating · 23 May 2013 at 23:14

BF-Bert said:
Could the client let the Brazilian channel use the promotional video without involving you? They must have a right to distribute.

No, and no they don't.

tom_e said:
You've not really got a choice unless you can be bothered with dragging them through the brazilian courts, as it sounds like they're just going to do what they want regardless.

Well we've said they can't use it without charge now. They're the 2nd biggest news network in the world in terms of revenue so it would be pretty bad of them if they used it.

BF-Bert · 24 May 2013 at 07:57

So what rights do the client have?

Nexus · 24 May 2013 at 08:14

Russinating said:
Yes, of course it is.

I was surprised by that personally.

If a business/brand has contracted you to create something that promotes them, I would think most companies will be very particular about their image and control over it.

Perhaps not necessarily demanding in the contract that you give up your copyright, which im sure most would, but at least that you aren't allowed to sell it otherwise or do anything without their prior wishes. By the sounds of it you could almost sell your footage to somebody who might use it in a derogative way which would damage their brand.

Russinating · 24 May 2013 at 09:16

BF-Bert said:
So what rights do the client have?

To use it for the brief as intended...

Nexus said:
I was surprised by that personally.

If a business/brand has contracted you to create something that promotes them, I would think most companies will be very particular about their image and control over it.

Perhaps not necessarily demanding in the contract that you give up your copyright, which im sure most would, but at least that you aren't allowed to sell it otherwise or do anything without their prior wishes. By the sounds of it you could almost sell your footage to somebody who might use it in a derogative way which would damage their brand.

Really? I would have thought a forum of photographers would know that copyright is never released and usage is nearly always limited to the original brief. Part of the project cost is based on how, where and when it will be used otherwise you'd get Coca Cola having commercials made for a lot less under the pretence that they're only for internal use for one day.

And just for the record the client asked us if we could deal with all the enquiries and told us that we could charge for it. Not that we need their permission, mind, but we would always ask of it.

BF-Bert · 24 May 2013 at 15:30

Is there not an exception in copyright law for news reporting?

D.P. · 24 May 2013 at 15:46

Nexus said:
I was surprised by that personally.

If a business/brand has contracted you to create something that promotes them, I would think most companies will be very particular about their image and control over it.

Perhaps not necessarily demanding in the contract that you give up your copyright, which im sure most would, but at least that you aren't allowed to sell it otherwise or do anything without their prior wishes. By the sounds of it you could almost sell your footage to somebody who might use it in a derogative way which would damage their brand.

Normally there is a joint agreement in place, the photographer cannot do anything with the footage without permission from the client. If a company pays X amount of money for video/photos then they don't want the photographer selling n the footage to a 3rd party!