Should a garage charge?

peterattheboro · 9 Sep 2010 at 12:58

Over the past month i've had new brakes fitted which didn't seem to work very well.

My Uncle fitted the brakes (he's been working on cars for over 20 years so should know his stuff) and even after the bedding in period, they were grinding.

So I took it to another guy who thought that i'd bought and had fitted the incorrect brakes, but they are the correct brakes.

So now i've decided not to be a cheapskate and take it to a garage who have had a look, they had the car plugged and found a faulty abs sensor. So that's been changed and they've also fitted a new caliper for me and including the diagnostics, this all came to £250.

The grinding has mostly gone but it still comes back every now and again, so the car is back in the garage.

Should the garage charge me for doing another diagnostic when they've already invoiced me (and i've paid) and confirmed that the problem has been fixed?

DM · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:01

I would say no, because its still the same problem you are back with.

peterattheboro · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:06

That's what I thought. But if they've changed the wrong ABS sensor and charged me for it and now they are saying that they need to change another one and will charge me for that, then i'll be a little miffed

DM · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:10

Im not a big mechanic, so excuse the ignorance, but how is an ABS sensor going to cause grinding?

Disco Boy · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:11

It happens unfortunately, you'll find that if they think you're likely to become a returning customer they are less likely to charge you. If they think they aren't going to see you again they'll get what they an from you. if does, of course, depend entirely on the garage in question.

peterattheboro · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:15

DiamondMark said:
Im not a big mechanic, so excuse the ignorance, but how is an ABS sensor going to cause grinding?

I have no idea. My uncle has been looking at it for a few days solid and can't figure it out. I've asked another mate who couldn't really figure it out.

I've now took it to a garage who ran it through a diagnostic and it was throwing up an error on one of the sensors. This has been replaced and the car is a lot better. Apart from the odd occasion where it does it slightly.

So I would assume that the sensor has something to do with it?

It only happens when braking from 15-0mph aswell. At speed it's perfectly fine.

Disco Boy said:
It happens unfortunately, you'll find that if they think you're likely to become a returning customer they are less likely to charge you. If they think they aren't going to see you again they'll get what they an from you. if does, of course, depend entirely on the garage in question.

Well i've been going there for a few years now. But do I trust them? I don't know. We'll see if they shaft me on this job which will depend on whether I go back.

Tesla · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:23

Maybe the other calliper is sticking. If one was bad then not unlikely the other is since they've done the same amount of "work" over their lifetime.

I had to change one calliper on the GF's Fiesta earlier in the year. I just bit the bullet and did both fronts as the parts were not too bad and it would have been quicker and ultimately less hassle to then address the other calliper in the near future.

realscot · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:25

the grinding your describing seems to be the abs kickback. Also with it only happening at low speeds its almost definately still an ABS fault.
Each corner of the car has ABS and at each corner there are 2 parts to the abs system.
1. The Sensor, 2. what it senses (usually either teeth on the cv joint or a magnetic ring on the wheel bearing)
When you change an ABS sensor it doesnt always cure it, sometimes you also have to change the teeth/ring to fully correct the problem. I infact have a Clio back today with this exact problem, put a sensor in yesterday (what the diagnostic computer said was wrong) and came back today with the light back on. Whole driveshafts are cheap enough so just fired a new one in.

Secondly the caliper wont be related to your judder but that doesn't mean it didn't need changing.

peterattheboro · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:26

Would a rear caliper cause grinding though?

The one I changed had been freed twice (handbrake cable)... drove for a few miles and noticed it had stuck again but wasn't sure, went to feel the disc but didn't feel warm.. so went closer and closer.. still felt cold... touched the ****er and burnt my finger! :mad:

peterattheboro · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:28

realscot said:
the grinding your describing seems to be the abs kickback. Also with it only happening at low speeds its almost definately still an ABS fault.
Each corner of the car has ABS and at each corner there are 2 parts to the abs system.
1. The Sensor, 2. what it senses (usually either teeth on the cv joint or a magnetic ring on the wheel bearing)
When you change an ABS sensor it doesnt always cure it, sometimes you also have to change the teeth/ring to fully correct the problem. I infact have a Clio back today with this exact problem, put a sensor in yesterday (what the diagnostic computer said was wrong) and came back today with the light back on. Whole driveshafts are cheap enough so just fired a new one in.

Secondly the caliper wont be related to your judder but that doesn't mean it didn't need changing.

Thanks.. that's great stuff... Hopefully the garage will pick up this so if they try and charge me for any other bits then i'll obviously query them!

Tesla · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:30

If any brake calliper is stuck causing the pad to touch the disc you could hear grinding. Front or back, mechanically the same function.

peterattheboro · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:42

I'm now thinking if I should change that ring aswell as I think that bearing may be on it's way out.

On the Mk3 Mondeo though, the bearing, hub and abs ring are all one complete unit!

Matt82 · 9 Sep 2010 at 13:43

DiamondMark said:
Im not a big mechanic, so excuse the ignorance, but how is an ABS sensor going to cause grinding?

im with diamond. i think the garage is yanking your chain.

adam cool dude · 9 Sep 2010 at 14:52

Have you checked your abs rings to see if one of them is clogged up with dirt or has cracked? That could cause dodgy braking at slow speeds that you describe and might be why the diagnostics came up with a bad wheel sensor.

If it is that you will need a new CV joint which will have the ABS ring on it. This will be around the £30 mark if bought off the internet and fitting is quite easy but expect a garage to charge around £100. I Would ask to see the old CV too as if this is cracked then they have charged you for a ABS sensor that didn't need doing and were just trying to get money out of you.

Nomisf · 9 Sep 2010 at 17:47

Get your fusebox details, pull the ABS system fuse, then brake a few times from 15-0 see if it still grinds. That will ultimately tell you if it has anything to do with the ABS system

Dogbreath · 9 Sep 2010 at 18:22

"Grinding" is not the right word in this instance, it implies mechanical contact which is not your problem. It sounds like you are simply hearing the ABS in operation.

Since replacing the ABS sensor has significantly improved the situation, then it seems likely the old sensor was faulty. If it's still doing it then possibly the garage have not fitted the new sensor correctly (the air gap between the reluctor ring and sensor is important) or they have missed a second fault. The symptoms you described (ABS operating at low speeds) is almost certain to be caused by low output from a sensor, either due to the sensor itself (and associated wiring), the mounting of the sensor or the reluctor ring on the CV joint/hub.

If more parts need to be replaced, then it seems quite fair that you pay for this.

Moeks · 9 Sep 2010 at 18:25

Not directly related to peterattheboro's issue, well it might be ...but for my own interest anyway. Should there be a clear gap between the brake pad and the disc or should the pad be so close to the disk you couldn't even get a piece of paper in there, i.e. so close you can here and feel the disk just touching it if you spin the hub by hand?

peterattheboro · 30 Sep 2010 at 11:40

Update:

So the car is back at the garage and they've sent it to another garage to now have two new bearings/hubs put on the front. As i've said, it's all one complete unit so to change one thing, you need to change it all.

I've paid the first garage to fix the job, they said they did and they haven't. They've now sent it elsewhere to get fixed!

They better not be charging me for that!

Dogbreath · 30 Sep 2010 at 11:51

Moeks said:
Not directly related to peterattheboro's issue, well it might be ...but for my own interest anyway. Should there be a clear gap between the brake pad and the disc or should the pad be so close to the disk you couldn't even get a piece of paper in there, i.e. so close you can here and feel the disk just touching it if you spin the hub by hand?

Missed this last time: The disc should be free enough to easily turn by hand, but the pads will be close enough to very lightly touch the discs so you will usually hear a light scraping noise.

Fr0dders · 30 Sep 2010 at 11:58

peterattheboro said:
I have no idea. My uncle has been looking at it for a few days solid and can't figure it out. I've asked another mate who couldn't really figure it out.

I've now took it to a garage who ran it through a diagnostic and it was throwing up an error on one of the sensors. This has been replaced and the car is a lot better. Apart from the odd occasion where it does it slightly.

So I would assume that the sensor has something to do with it?

It only happens when braking from 15-0mph aswell. At speed it's perfectly fine.

oh lord

classic computer says no job

Hate the way that for modern "garage technicians" (to give them a better name) their first stop is to plug it into the electronic diagnostic machine and replace anything thats throwing an error.

How pointless, no wonder it didnt solve it.

and just to re-iterate no way should you be charged to fix another diagnostic charge for a problem they failed to rectify the first time.