Should UK self-defence laws be reformed?

[Stu999]

With knife, chemical and dog attacks (and rare shootings) in the news on a seemingly regular basis should self-defence laws and particularly rules around weapons / less lethal options be changed? Do you think people should be allowed less lethal options like pepper / OC / para spray be allowed? What about knives? Firearms?

The flip side of course is not to consume too much media. I believe violent crime is overall on a downward trend so there would simply be less fear of these types of incident if people didn't watch as much TV news or read the internet news.

Also, with there being no 'right' to bear arms in the UK there could be a wide range of controls put in place that don't apply to the US. For example, cannot be sold to over 21s, criminal background checks meaning they cannot be sold to people who have committed certain types of crime and psychological evaluations / review of medical records by an independent body (I say independent because apparently some GPs refuse to sign off shotgun certificates on principle).

What do you think?

Poll options:
Yes - less lethal options only
Yes - Less lethal + knives
Yes - Less lethal + knives + firearms
No - the current status quo is fine
No - I object to any form of violence
Give me Bovril

 

[Stu999]

Obvisouly the best way to deal with violent crime is to arm everyone and lower legal barriers

But is it impossible to put some reasonable protections in place like I outlined in the OP?

 

[Stu999]

I'm told that it is men who are more likely to be attacked. Unfortunately my attempts to provide a cite seem to bring up sexual assaults which are a different kettle of fish.

Closest thing I can find is this (section 6): https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...le-most-likely-to-be-victims-of-violent-crime

 

[Stu999]

Exactly

Plus, can you imagine the carnage in regional town centres on Saturday nights? I doesn't bear thinking about!

There wouldn’t be carnage - use whatever tool you have inappropriately once and you lose your right to have it plus potentially end up in prison. There could also be laws about their use under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

@Haggisman - you’d also have to have some rules around reporting thefts along with some serious consequences if you don’t.

 

[Stu999]

Defenceless against what exactly? Are you thinking about a robbery scenario where instead of letting someone take their possessions and then calling the police, a person has the right to carry their own weapon and use it to attack whoever is threatening them?

People aren’t only attacked in order to take property. It could just be to defend against physical assault (someone takes offence at you) or a Brianna Ghey type situation.

Well you know what they say about assumption

I'd rather offer no solution than one which would potentially make things worse, because (like I already said), it's not as simple as you're making out.

That’s the same as keeping the current status quo.

 

[Stu999]

So increase the risk in the much more common ”i want your phone and wallet" scenario, to maybe decrease the risk in the much rarer "I want to attack you regardless, so you having a weapon isn't going to change my mind anyway" scenario?

Makes perfect sense.


It's not. I don't think the status quo is working, I'm just not simple-minded enough to think it can easily be solved by allowing everyone to carry weapons without at least considering all the repercussions of doing so.


Don't know about you, but I'm actually quite happy that the likelihood of my 12 year old being shot by one of his fellow pupils who took their parents' legally owned gun is so close to 0 that it may as well.

I’d rather have a better option to defend myself in the “going to be attacked regardless” scenario than hope I’m great at fist fighting or I’m an MMA guy. As I said in the OP I think you’d have to restrict ownership to those without convictions so the people trying to take your phone shouldn’t be armed (not saying that’s impossible, they may also be armed with a knife now).

Thanks for the insult. I didn’t say everyone should be armed. I set out a non-exhaustive set of conditions as a starting point for a discussion. I also said it shouldn’t be exactly like the USA.

I think that school scenario would be extremely remote. There would probably have to be storage conditions, separate locked storage for ammunition, maybe separate locked storage for bolts / firing mechanism. As I said, not a 1:1 recreation of the US. Some people probably wouldn’t even have such a thing if they had kids in the house.

 

[Stu999]

Ok. Let's assume weapons are allowed.

If i was having an argument with a man (thinking car parking type) and I saw him reaching, i'd smash him- I'd have to. I'd have to properly do him, just to protect myself from him using his suspected weapon.

Is this what people want?

It’s a hypothetical scenario. You could drive off, pepper spray them, etc.

The whole point of the thread is to ask people do you think there should be a change and it seems like most people don’t.

 

[Stu999]

Then what's the point? The guys breaking into your house at 3am aren't going to politely wait while you go rummage through 3 different locked cabinets reassembling and loading your gun



Even though you're exponentially more likely to be mugged, and by making the mugger fear that you're also armed they're more likely to just stab you than give you the chance to pull your knife out?

Well, it wouldn’t be an issue for me. I don’t have kids so I wouldn’t have to worry about them pepper spraying themselves or something like that.

A mugger could just stab you instead now, so what have you lost through having an option?

If you think no changes are necessary that’s fine.

 

[Stu999]

You have only quoted half of my post, then responded with a similar point to the question I asked in the bit you deleted.

Yes, I’m confirming that it’s not just the mugger scenario I’m thinking of.

 

[Stu999]

The solution is a functional police service and legal system, but it's easier to arm plebs I guess

A functional police force would be great but doesn’t solve the self-defence problem since they’re not always going to get there in time to stop you getting stabbed / beaten up / whatever.

 

[Stu999]

Outside of urban ghettos it's a vanishingly small problem. I've lived in London most of my life and have been mugged, stabbed and beaten up... Not once. Yes it happens, probably because there are no consequences and little chance of being caught

You’re probably right about that. I should stop watching some of the news / not watch it as often.

 

[Stu999]

you not thinking from what 99 percent of the people carrying it will actually do. have pepper spray cs gas use it against people to then do whatever they want to them. thats why its not allowed. robberies muggings would go up 1000 percent.

You would imagine it would be classified as armed robbery / aggravated assault though if they used any type of weapon. I don’t think criminals will just randomly spray people from the get go. They’d do what they do now, which is threaten first.

It wouldn’t be the first resort due to the potential sentence if they’re caught (setting aside the likelihood of them being caught in the first place).

 

[Stu999]

Most people on this forum couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag with or without a legal or illegal weapon. Adding more weapons into the game isn’t going to help anyone.

That’s rather the point of at least having an option.

At the end of the day nobody can say what would or wouldn’t happen but if this forum is representative then it will never happen anyway as people don’t want it, so it’s a bit of a moot point.