Simon: Need your advice please.

Housey

Housey

Housey

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21 Feb 2006
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I am having some RS4 issues and doing my research on RS246 it seems that there are issues with 'coking' on the RS4 and lots of discussions relating to oil, which I know is 'your thing'.

In summary:

My post on RS246: http://www.rs246.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=312978#312978

Some more details from another chap: http://www.rs246.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=76330

Another spin: http://www.rs246.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=75737

Bit of a ball ache but would appreciate your persepctive if you get the chance as I am trying to broaden my understanding so I can ensure I get what I need from Audi so any angles you might have around root cause would be useful.

Thanks in advance.

Housey
 
I'm reading :p

What oil do you use? This is certainly a 'problem' with the new direct injection engines. The gasoline doesn't wash the valves and so the values tend to gum up with deposits of burnt oil, this burnt oil comes from the crankcase via the PCV system. However diesels operate in a similar way (fuel directly injected) and they don't have a problem - even with the harsher environment of EGR - exhaust gas recirculation.

VW have a FSi engine test as part of their 504 specification where inlet valve deposits are measured.

The oil can have an effect (want an oil with minimal viscosity modifier as this is what burns 'dirty' and caused deposits) however engine hardware and breather system designs will have a massive effect. In an ideal world you would have an engine with no blowby and no oil consumption. The type of fuel won't have an effect.

You could try adding an addition catch tank for the PCV system as from what I have read the Audi system doesnt work, this will hopefully catch oil in the oil mist before it makes it's way into the inlet system. PCV is for enironmental reasons as the crankcase gases are now required to be burnt by the engine, in the old days these would vent to atmosphere.

That's a quick summary, it certainly provides a new requirement of an oil's development. Let me know if you have any more specific questions
 
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the audi board threads were very interesting. the state of the inlet manifold was terrible.

would be interesting to see what the compression on the engine was, as for that much oil to get to the valves it must have either excessive blow by or a lot of oil/mist is being carried by the normal level of blow by.

ive got a pic of the inlet valves on my old golf engine (obviously inlet manifold off) that i took around xmas time (so just under 200k miles)

s6302483.jpg


the compression on my engine is still good but i have a catch tank between the pcv and inlet manifold.

maybe a catch tank could prevent it on the audis or just vent it to atmosphere?
 
You engine has fuel to wash the valves. The Audi/VW FSi engines don't and so the deposits build up as there is nothing to clean them off.
 
in side the inlet manifold was the same. with some of these old engines they have a stepper motor on the throttle for idle control. the pcv is before the throttle so you can spot a heavy breather if the throttle is caked in gum, which also makes the idle wavey beacuse the gum stops the throttle plate from being controlled properly.

the throttle on mine is spotlessly clean, same with the top half of the manifold too etc. i put that down to the catch tank.

from the audi threads it seems the audi "catch tank" doesnt work as well as it could.
 
The oil that Audi reccomends and so the oil I have used is Shell Helix Ultra Extra which is a 5W-30 and meets the Audi/VW 507 rating. I have just taken the car off long life services as I feel 20K miles between service intervals on such an engine is not a good idea so I am now into 10K fixed services and I need to check what oil they are using, though I suspect that wont have changed.
 
I am currently running the car for 1,000 miles at which point Audi will drop the oil and perform a consumption test, something I pushed for as the car uses around 4L's of oil in 20K miles, which I think is too much even if Audi suggests 'it's within tolerences'.
 
Housey said:
I am currently running the car for 1,000 miles at which point Audi will drop the oil and perform a consumption test, something I pushed for as the car uses around 4L's of oil in 20K miles, which I think is too much even if Audi suggests 'it's within tolerences'.
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I doubt you’ll find any manufacturer that will say that kind of usage is out with tolerances.
 
Housey said:
I am currently running the car for 1,000 miles at which point Audi will drop the oil and perform a consumption test, something I pushed for as the car uses around 4L's of oil in 20K miles, which I think is too much even if Audi suggests 'it's within tolerences'.
Click to expand...

1L every 5k isn't that bad, a work colleague's RS4 uses 1L every 2-3k. He has mentioned it to the dealer who said that it is pretty normal and they have topped up the oil free a couple of times now. He drives it very hard though and does a couple of track days most months.

Not that its the same engine however my MK5 Golf GTI uses about a litre every 6k, I also agree that the long life oil intervals are too much and I change the oil and filter mid way between the services so around 6-7k. I would be curious to what Simon thinks of doing this ?
 
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Firestar_3x said:
BMW state usage of upto 1ltr per 1k is acceptable iirc, so 4ltrs in 20k is, its not just BMW either VW have similar for the TDI engines.
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While I can understand the "its within tollerences" statement spouted by dealers, it's not the first time I have heard it, I don't simply take it at face value. I didn't buy this car from new so have no idea how it was run in but neither my M3's or GT3 used a drop of oil and they too had similar tollerences like most manufacturers, though my wifes TDi does also like a drink of the black stuff.

This is the difference between taking what people tell you at face value and putting up with it, or doing your research and approaching the dealer/manufacturer from a standpoint of informed knowledge and I think all I am trying to do is get myself to a point where I have done my own research and am not being palmed off, which up until now I have been and I am tired with it.

"Sir there is nothing wrong with your rear exhaust baffles they are opening fine"....next service "we changed both exhasuts as they baffles were ceased and were not opening.."

"Sir we have checked all the shocks and they are all fine, we took it on a road test and could hear nothing"...next service "we changed the front nearside shocker as it was leaking slightly and our RS4 man heard a nocking"

"Sir we have checked the engine, we have had it in 2 weeks and we have changed a load of bits, we are confident we have solved your emission light issues"....4 weeks later on comes the light....

You perhaps see why I don't tend to take people telling me stuff is 'normal' at face value ;)
 
Dangerous Dave said:
Not that its the same engine however my MK5 Golf GTI uses about a litre every 6k, I also agree that the long life oil intervals are too much and I change the oil and filter mid way between the services so around 6-7k. I would be curious to what Simon thinks of doing this ?
Click to expand...

Our old MK5 Golf GTI never used a drop in 30K miles...
 
Totally understand your viewpoint and possition on the issues Housey, i've had many a problem with dealers telling me nothing is wrong with the car when i clearly know something is, like you say they like to fob people off so they don't have to deal with the problem.

Its understandable why the manufactures have to place an acceptable usage on things like oil, they need cover someone getting arsey at the dealer cause his car usues 250ml of oil every 10k, however this doesn't necessarily make it acceptable for us.

Personally i'm of the school of thought that excess oil consumption which i class as 1ltr in-between services (10K) in my mind isn't acceptable, i wouldn't be happy if i owned a car that consumed "Vast amounts" of oil, be this from engine wear or because "thats how the engines been designed".
 
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is the principal the same (ie it recirculates portions of exhaust gas to burn it twice?)

if so, if its running overly rich this can cause a sooty exhaust and might explain part of the gunk when it meets the oil mist
 
What is obvious to anyone is Audi have got something wrong, it shouldn't be coking valves like it is and on that point Audi needs to come to an agreement that protects me as an owner and gaurantees it will not impact on the life or performance of the car. They have already acknowledged the issue and that I am not a happy customer, something that is currently reflecting baddly on their prestige brand with a customer who has invested in it, not just now but in the past too. We are now following a course of action to get to the bottom of it but at the end of the day they need to confirm how they plan to keep me happy because currently I am not.
 
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