Smogsy: HZ vs Resolution Thread

Ayahuasca · 23 Mar 2017 at 16:22

You can't see the orange glowing thing in his right hand nash?

smogsy · 23 Mar 2017 at 16:32

looks like a man holding a cigar to me in the right hand

Nexus18 · 23 Mar 2017 at 17:03

nashathedog said:
It looks like a man with goggles who has his right hand up to his ear.

It also looks like his right hands wiggling to me (gif?) but that might be me straining to see it, I can make out the outline of the face and right hand, plus the edge of a watch band or cuff on his right wrist.

But yes, it is Morgan Freeman holding a cigar in oblivion, that particular scene is brought up a lot for when it comes to black levels etc.

https://www.avforums.com/review/panasonic-tx-65cz950-4k-uhd-oled-review.11860

Sowa highlighted this with Morgan Freeman’s introduction in Oblivion, where he lights a cigar and then his face disappears into the darkness. You should just make out the very left edge of his face and his eyes. Everything else should be in complete black.

I was just curious if the people that reduce the gamma end up having nothing but a black screen

andybird123 · 23 Mar 2017 at 18:39

Nexus18 said:
My dell 2209WA, U2311H (2 of these) and LG 29um65 have zero bleed (my 29um65 left side is quite bad for IPS glow compared to the right side but my first 2 LG 29um65 had awful bleed) but "overall", the lg 29um65 has significantly less IPS glow than the previous dell monitors.

take a pic in a blacked out room with the monitor just showing black and I would be willing to bet any money that any of your IPS monitors has corners which are not completely black compared with the middle, wether you want to call it glow or bleed or whatever if you call it one thing someone else will call it something else... I play a lot of dark games in a dark room so any difference in glow/bleed/brightness from the center to the corners is a complete no go for me - TN is much more uniform and with the Asus I have no issues with colour shift

Nexus18 said:
How far do you sit back from the TVs/monitors?

Out of curiosity, @ everyone........ how does this look on your monitors? What can you see and what can't you see?

with my gaming monitor I sit with it about 60cm from my face

and as for the image, looking at it on my IPS laptop all I could see was the reflection in the glasses and the orange circle, on my PG278Q I can see all the detail of his face, teeth, sunglasses etc.

Tommy_Here · 23 Mar 2017 at 19:01

I'm running a 27 inch 4k monitor with 1080 Ti runs games maxed out looks fantastic!

Nexus18 · 23 Mar 2017 at 19:37

andybird123 said:
take a pic in a blacked out room with the monitor just showing black and I would be willing to bet any money that any of your IPS monitors has corners which are not completely black compared with the middle, wether you want to call it glow or bleed or whatever if you call it one thing someone else will call it something else... I play a lot of dark games in a dark room so any difference in glow/bleed/brightness from the center to the corners is a complete no go for me - TN is much more uniform and with the Asus I have no issues with colour shift

with my gaming monitor I sit with it about 60cm from my face

and as for the image, looking at it on my IPS laptop all I could see was the reflection in the glasses and the orange circle, on my PG278Q I can see all the detail of his face, teeth, sunglasses etc.

Here you go:

That is more or less an accurate photo of my 29um65 (i.e. not the over exposed ones that 95% of people post) with the settings I use. Like I said in the post, the left side is worse than the right side, it is IPS glow as when I move completely to the left side, it disappears, under normal conditions (even in something like alien isolation) the IPS glow becomes less obvious. Backlight bleed does not disappear.

My first 2 29" monitors:

That is back light bleed as if you notice, I take the photos slightly from the left side to mitigate any IPS glow.

I can't be bothered hooking up the other dell monitors but it would be the same as my first photo but more lighter grey/glowy "overall"

Backlight bleed is a fault, it can happen with any LCD monitor (this includes VA and TN) and I wouldn't accept any bleed at all.

IPS glow is trait of IPS but it is overblown imo and is easy to further mitigate with ambient or/and back lighting with an appropriate brightness setting.

60cm should be plenty for viewing distance on screens smaller than 30" so IPS glow shouldn't be caused from sitting too close.

As posted above, your IPS is representing that scene more or less how it was meant to be viewed and the TN (be that down to the panel or your settings) is ruining the image:

Sowa highlighted this with Morgan Freeman’s introduction in Oblivion, where he lights a cigar and then his face disappears into the darkness. You should just make out the very left edge of his face and his eyes. Everything else should be in complete black.

EDIT:

TN isn't any more uniform than IPS or VA, if anything it is the worst for uniformity, unless are you just talking about an all black screen? You might not notice the contrast shift but it is there under certain conditions, the same way IPS glow is visible under certain conditions.

andybird123 · 23 Mar 2017 at 19:47

so on my IPS where all of the dark colours get crushed in to black is good, and my TN where I can see some of the tiny variation of different colours that are present in the source image is bad?

bearing in mind I did this by reducing the gamma, making the screen darker on dark images which gets rid of the greyish hue it has by default, and my brightness is set to 30

I've just inspected the image in photoshop, and pixels that you say should look black and pixels that shouldn't are in fact the exact same colour, just by the way

tyler_jrb · 23 Mar 2017 at 20:29

Similar opinions to me.

I've had 1440p 144hz/165hz, 4k@60hz and my current 21:9 100hz (3440x1440) is the best experience personally out of all of them.

4k is a lovely looking experience but the 60hz is far from enjoyable after experiencing over 100hz. 144hz is nice for fps games but to be honest 100hz is the sweet spot for me, minimal gains at 100hz+ and feels just as smooth after getting used to it.

21:9 is just so much better over 16:9. Everything feels so much more open, couldn't go back to 16:9 now as you feel almost caged in.

I game in a lit room so blb or anything like that is never noticed and has never bothered me. Same with films,movies I have a tv at the end of the bed,living room for that.

Next monitor will be another 21:9 120-144hz panel if possible.

Nexus18 · 23 Mar 2017 at 20:58

andybird123 said:
so on my IPS where all of the dark colours get crushed in to black is good, and my TN where I can see some of the tiny variation of different colours that are present in the source image is bad?

bearing in mind I did this by reducing the gamma, making the screen darker on dark images which gets rid of the greyish hue it has by default, and my brightness is set to 30

I've just inspected the image in photoshop, and pixels that you say should look black and pixels that shouldn't are in fact the exact same colour, just by the way

I can't be sure as to what exactly you are referring to as it will look different on my screen, all I can say is that on my plasma TV and this LG IPS screen, I don't exactly see much colour to the scene other than orange, white, bit of grey/silver with the rest being black, it more or less is as the guy described except I can see a tiny bit more detail around the face and his hand holding the cigar.

I also don't see any grey hue to the image?

See the rest of this:

https://www.avforums.com/review/panasonic-tx-65cz950-4k-uhd-oled-review.11860

Sowa highlighted this with Morgan Freeman’s introduction in Oblivion, where he lights a cigar and then his face disappears into the darkness. You should just make out the very left edge of his face and his eyes. Everything else should be in complete black.

The LG was showing too much of this scene where we could actually see the back wall behind Freeman. Just because that data might be in the image when mastered and brought out with incorrect gamma or panel brightness, it doesn’t mean you are supposed to see that detail. This is important in a scene like the one being highlighted as it can completely change the feeling and mood towards the character. He no longer looks menacing if you can see him clearly, like he was displayed on the LG. Again, we had no control over this aspect of the demo, but it did make sense and highlighted the expertise of the old plasma technicians managing to get the gradations between absolute black and just above correct. There were other examples shown where the CZ950 handled shadow detail without clipping and in a more dynamic way.

Those aren't my words.... The guy who said all of this was Mike Sowa, the colorist that worked on the film.

From what you said (with being able to see all the detail such as his teeth etc.), your TN is not showing the dark scene the way he intended.

nashathedog · 23 Mar 2017 at 21:07

Ayahuasca said:
You can't see the orange glowing thing in his right hand nash?

Yeah the little dot of glow in his right I can see, I didn't mention the one in his left hand as it was the most obvious.

nashathedog · 23 Mar 2017 at 21:11

Nexus18 said:
But yes, it is Morgan Freeman holding a cigar in oblivion, that particular scene is brought up a lot for when it comes to black levels etc.

I knew I'd see those goggles before, Did I win anything?

Nexus18 · 23 Mar 2017 at 21:13

nashathedog said:
Yeah the little dot of glow in his right I can see, I didn't mention the one in his left hand as it was the most obvious.

He isn't holding anything in his left hand

I think that is just a light in the background with some blur/DOF effect or/and lens flare type of effect.

nashathedog said:
I knew I'd see those goggles before, Did I win anything?

An internet cookie

nashathedog · 23 Mar 2017 at 21:18

Nexus18 said:
He isn't holding anything in his left hand I think that is just a light in the background with some blur/DOF effect.

An internet cookie

Thankyou, I've trusted you my email address

Nexus18 said:
Here you go:

My first 2 29" monitors:

I briefly bought a 27" IPS Asus Dominator from OCUK and it was close to this bad in 3 corners so I packed it back up and sent it back sharpish, I replaced that with a members market 21:9 and the glows barely there so I'm very happy with the one I ended up with, And it was a bit cheaper which is always a bonus.

DONOHUE07 · 23 Mar 2017 at 21:23

Enjoyed reading through this thread @smogsy, very informative as my old 1440p 60hz monitor died last year and currently gaming on my 1080p 60hz TV, looking at getting a new monitor but not sure which to go for. I havnt experienced a monitor with a refresh rate over 60hz, is it really that much better? 60hz just feels feels normal to me

Nexus18 · 23 Mar 2017 at 21:29

nashathedog said:
Thankyou, I've trusted you my email address

I briefly bought a 27" IPS Asus Dominator from OCUK and it was close to this bad in 3 corners so I packed it back up and sent it back sharpish, I replaced that with a members market 21:9 and the glows barely there so I'm very happy with the one I ended up with, And it was a bit cheaper which is always a bonus.

Internet cookie sent

Yup unfortunately IPS monitors have gone to **** for QC over the last couple of years

I think it is largely down to monitor manufacturers trying to make the monitor as small/slim as possible in all dimensions and as a result the assembly of the panel suffers from things like the over tightening of the bezels/plastic chassis assembly.

smogsy · 23 Mar 2017 at 21:41

DONOHUE07 said:
Enjoyed reading through this thread @smogsy, very informative as my old 1440p 60hz monitor died last year and currently gaming on my 1080p 60hz TV, looking at getting a new monitor but not sure which to go for. I haven't experienced a monitor with a refresh rate over 60hz, is it really that much better? 60hz just feels feels normal to me

for this review, i went back to 4K 60hz again to retest my thoughts & decision & yes High refresh is huge difference even more so for you as TV response times are Even higher! so you will notice more.

if your going for a new monitor dont forget to check out freesync/gsync if your budget allows and of course depending on your GPU vendor

DONO, you got two options
1) don't experience one and be happy using 60Hz save money possibly but don't let anyone shows you 60hz+ firsthand you will most likely want one.
2) you experience first hand & will crave for one after going back to 60hz.

i'm going to try a 60hz challenge and use my 4K monitor on Overwatch for a week, ill possibly get used to it but if i even look at 100hz+ it be hard not to switch back!

if my 1440p 144hz was IPS my 4K would not even be in my cupboard of monitors anymore it be on gumtree or the like.

TNA · 23 Mar 2017 at 21:51

DONOHUE07 said:
Enjoyed reading through this thread @smogsy, very informative as my old 1440p 60hz monitor died last year and currently gaming on my 1080p 60hz TV, looking at getting a new monitor but not sure which to go for. I havnt experienced a monitor with a refresh rate over 60hz, is it really that much better? 60hz just feels feels normal to me

Depends on you and what games you play I would say. Having had a 144hz screen I had zero problems going back to 60hz. But others cannot do that. If you play Fps games competitively I would say the extra hz is the way to go. But if not I think getting say 60fps in 4K takes about the same graphics performance as 100fps on 1440p ultrawwide. The 4K will obviously have the better sharper IQ. But then you miss out on ultrawide if that is something you consider desirable.

Basically all this stuff is highly subjective. All you can do is read what smogsy said, look online and decide for yourself. If anyone tries to tell you "x is best" they either have an agenda or do not understand what's what.

andybird123 · 23 Mar 2017 at 21:57

Nexus18 said:
I can't be sure as to what exactly you are referring to as it will look different on my screen, all I can say is that on my plasma TV and this LG IPS screen, I don't exactly see much colour to the scene other than orange, white, bit of grey/silver with the rest being black, it more or less is as the guy described except I can see a tiny bit more detail around the face and his hand holding the cigar.

I also don't see any grey hue to the image?

See the rest of this:

https://www.avforums.com/review/panasonic-tx-65cz950-4k-uhd-oled-review.11860

Those aren't my words.... The guy who said all of this was Mike Sowa, the colorist that worked on the film.

From what you said (with being able to see all the detail such as his teeth etc.), your TN is not showing the dark scene the way he intended.

Grey hue is what a lot of people complain about when they see a stock pg278q, not talking about your image, turning down the gamma removes that as an issue for the monitor in general, not specifically just the image you showed

He says you should only be able to see one side of his face, but inspecting the image you posted both sides of his face have exactly the same pixel data, so they should both be visible, or both not. The same goes for his teeth and bits of his sunglasses are actually brighter.

I dont see a wall behind him.

Anyway, if anything all this is saying is that I still have my gamma too high, where as smogsy was saying the black levels were rubbish and his gamma was even higher than mine, so my "did you try adjusting the gamma" is even more relevant.

TNA · 23 Mar 2017 at 21:57

smogsy said:
for this review, i went back to 4K 60hz again to retest my thoughts & decision & yes High refresh is huge difference even more so for you as TV response times are Even higher! so you will notice more.

if your going for a new monitor dont forget to check out freesync/gsync if your budget allows and of course depending on your GPU vendor

DONO, you got two options
1) don't experience one and be happy using 60Hz save money possibly but don't let anyone shows you 60hz+ firsthand you will most likely want one.
2) you experience first hand & will crave for one after going back to 60hz.

i'm going to try a 60hz challenge and use my 4K monitor on Overwatch for a week, ill possibly get used to it but if i even look at 100hz+ it be hard not to switch back!

if my 1440p 144hz was IPS my 4K would not even be in my cupboard of monitors anymore it be on gumtree or the like.

As you play a game like overwatch, I can fully understand why the extra hz come in handy. In your position I would sell the 4K and the ultra wide and stick with your 144hz display. Put the money aside for the new asus 4K 144hz HDR display coming out in the near future

Greebo · 23 Mar 2017 at 22:07

nashathedog said:
It looks like a man with goggles who has his right hand up to his ear.

It also looks like his right hands wiggling to me (gif?) but that might be me straining to see it, I can make out the outline of the face and right hand, plus the edge of a watch band or cuff on his right wrist.

wOW poor screen then. To me its a black man with short grey hair and beard, round sunglasses with refelctions in them of a ghostly person?, hes holding a lit ciger in his right hand which is wearing fingerless leather gloves