SNR Margin craziness - check out the graph..
- Thread starter AJP
- Start date
Quiet as a mouse..
Nope, am on my 3rd brand new one..
None at all.
Weather, boiling hot or freezing cold has no bearing on it..
Soldato
- Joined
- 22 Aug 2005
- Posts
- 8,968
- Location
- Clydebank
Is it possible to get data for the day or week? A larger sample may help to see patterns.
Associate
- Joined
- 9 Sep 2008
- Posts
- 1,377
So I assume you've been through the standard routine of connecting to the master/test socket and swapping out all your equipment(including router)?
Ok see below for full detail of the problem and the investigation.... It's a lonnnnnnnnnnnnng read, but if u can trawl through it, then i'd really like to hear your opinions 
The Background
Moved into a house in Sept last year, located in a village in Bedfordshire. ADSL provided by Zen via the exchange 4.73km straight-line distance away. Actual line length probably closer to 6km.
Line has always been a solid 1Mb with the BRAS profile sometimes creeping up to ADSL 1250 on occasions.
Router used = Edimax AR-7284WnA running the latest firmware 1.0.6. Connected to BT Test Socket. PC connected to router via ethernet.
BT line goes from master socket to telegraph pole outside on street. This pole is connected to various underground junction boxes which feed my line approx 0.5km to the green cabinet in the centre of the village.
Connection was stable for all online activities (streaming, downloading, gaming etc) up until March this year when the problem began...
The Problem
March 4th 2011 - I notice when playing an online FPS game that i'm getting what seems to be periods of near-constant packet loss (lots of "running on the spot", lots of "teleporting" - just basically all the signs of a laggy connection) However my ping remained normal throughout.
I then checked by streaming something on youtube, this had similar results (I have a bandwidth monitor that tells me how much traffic my PC is generating at any given time) and it showed that the stream was "cutting out" at intermittent intervals where the connection would still be active, but the stream would essentially stop completely for a short period of time and then resume it's download.
I experience similar symptoms when testing with anything that uses the internet connection (a chat on Skype would be rendered inaudible for short periods of time etc etc)
Having checked my router I found that it was reporting thousands of errored seconds (although no HEC, OCD or LCD errors reported)
I also noticed that the SNR Margin was intermittently fluctuating from it's normal 7-8dB right down to 0.0dB for short periods of time, before retuning back to the normal 7-8dB range.
I noted that the errored seconds being reported by the router were increasing in-line with the SNR margin drops I was seeing.
Further testing also showed that the SNR Margin drops were occurring at the same time I was experiencing the problems with my connection (as described above)
Router rebooted made no difference, so i log the fault with Zen Tech Support.
The Investigation
As with all ISP's, I was asked to perform all the normal checks to rule out the problem being at my end; replaced filters, cables etc. I even went out and purchased a new router to test, which turned out to be worse than my existing router in being able to handle the SNR Margin drops to 0.0 - with it constantly dropping sync.
Interestingly, Zen couldn't see any of the errored seconds on the line, even though the router was reporting literally tens of thousands for each 24hr period. They could however see that the router was losing sync with the exchange regularly (now that the alternative router was plugged in and dropping sync all the time) and so they booked in a BT engineer to investigate an "intermittent connection".
March 16th 2011 - Engineer comes out to house (visit #1) and checks connection. He see's there is an issue (BRAS profile by this time has dropped to ADSL150 due to all the disconnects) and goes off to investigate.
He calls an hour or so later from the exchange to say "he thinks he's fixed it". By this time i'm back at work, so can't test the connection until i get back home.
I get home to find everything exactly the same. SNR Margin still constantly dropping to 0.0. All symptoms the same.
I inform Zen that the problem has not been fixed.
March 17th 2011 - Zen confirm to BT that the issue is not resolved.
March 18th 2011 - BT engineer (visit #2) booked for Sunday 20th March - AM appointment.
March 20th 2011 - No sign of any engineer - waited all morning. Queried situation with Zen.
March 21st 2011 - Zen update to confirm engineer did attend, but didn't require access to my premises. Engineer performed D-side swap. Zen want to monitor connection for 24hr period to see if issue resolved.
March 22nd 2011 - No difference to the connection, still all the same issues. Spoke to neighbour, he confirms lots of problems with his internet since early March too. Confirm all this back to Zen.
March 23rd 2011 - Zen arrange for BT Engineer (visit #3) to attend March 24th - PM.
March 24th 2011 - BT engineer attends premises (speaks to the missus this time, as i'm at work) again tests the line and see's there are problems. Goes off to "investigate further" in the village / exchange.
March 25th 2011 - Update from Zen re; previous day's engineer visit - BT Engineer notes read; "EU in sync on arrival, but EU said he is facing very intermittent issues. Eclipse test ok. ADSL test show CRC errors. There is a REIN issue in area. REIN issue Ref 2755 that was built on job SM7XAF72. Have reported to SFI about REIN issue."
So looks like they'd discovered a REIN issue... As it was Friday, Zen suggested there wouldn't be any further update until Monday 28th....
March 28th 2011 - Update from BT via Zen to say that the REIN fault is raised, and that they are still working on it.
March 29th 2011 - Update from BT via Zen to say REIN engineer assigned, but no ETA.
March 30th 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit.
March 31st 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit.
April 1st 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit. Although connection seems to be back to normal (aside from BRAS profile which is still stuck at ADSL500). Did they fix something??
April 2nd 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit. Spoke to Zen, confirmed line seems to be back to normal aside from the BRAS profile. Requested manual raising of profile.
April 4th 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit. Zen get BT to manually adjust BRAS profile back to ADSL1000.
April 5th 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit. Monitoring of line stability ongoing. So far so good.
April 6th 2011 - Update from BT via Zen to say; "REIN team have confirmed that job is closed as engineer has visited site and found no evidence of REIN. Current test results shows line is stable for 3 days now with a speed of 1 Meg". Line still stable, Zen close their ticket as issue resolved.
So... It seems that the problem just went away by itself after 28 days of constant issues. Strange, but I didn't really care as I had my internet connection back.
April 26th 2011 - ARGH! The problem is back (after 25 days of working fine). Exactly the same symptoms - just started again out of the blue. I re-raise with Zen.
April 28th 2011 - Zen re-raise fault with BT.
April 29th 2011 - BT want to arrange engineer visit, I explain to Zen that it would need to be a weekend visit as I cannot take any more time off work. Zen will go back to BT.
April 30th 2011 - No further update.
May 1st 2011 - No further update. Line seems to be back to normal again..
May 2nd 2011 - No further update. Line is indeed working as normal. Inform Zen.
May 6th 2011 - Zen close off fault.
So that was a little 5-day "blip" of the problem, after which everything went back to normal again...
May 23rd 2011 - Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! The b**ch is back. Exactly the same symptoms etc etc.
May 24th 2011 - I report to Zen that the issue has returned and request they log with BT.
May 25th 2011 - Update from Zen to confirm BT has stated there is an issue outstanding at my exchange which has to be resolved before they can investigate further.
May 26th 2011 - BT confirm issue at exchange resolved. I confirm problem still outstanding on my line. Ask Zen to chase with BT.
May 27th 2011 - No further update.
May 28th 2011 - No further update.
May 29th 2011 - No further update.
May 30th 2011 - No further update.
May 31st 2011 - Update from Zen to ask when BT engineer can attend (visit #4) to investigate. They inform me that earliest appointment would be June 7th. I ask for issue to be escalated as i don't want the issue disappearing again before BT have a chance to fix it.
June 1st 2011 - Zen escalate issue with BT management.
June 2nd 2011 - BT Manager confirms to Zen that he will "see this fault through personally". Engineer arranged to attend exchange to fix E-side (as that is where they think the problem lies) on June 7th (visit #4).
June 8th 2011 - Update from Zen; Thank you for the update. We have the engineers notes from the visit yesterday;
"The engineer has indicated an issue with the D-side of the network (the part from your premises to the Green Street Cab).
The engineer was fully aware of the issue that you have been having and saw it happen as well. However this engineer was unable to resolve the issue.
Engineer spoke to his Team Coach, who advised that they would need to send a specialist engineer to investigate the issue.
Engineer also advised that there are other people in the area having the same issue that have not been resolved.
The fault is not in BT Openreaches Escalation queue, waiting the assignment of the PTO Engineer to investigate that fault.
We have been advised by BT Wholesale that the next update will be tomorrow 09/06/11."
Maybe some progress at last? Hopefully PTO engineer will be able to finally shed some light on the issue....?
June 9th 2011 - PTO Engineer (visit #5) confirmed for June 13th.
June 13th 2011 - PTO Engineer calls me to confirm what speed my router would usually sync at. During the brief discussion, he confirms he'll be investigating from the pole to the exchange.
June 14th 2011 - Update from BT states; "Checked that the fault was dealt by the quality assurance team who have checked with the suppliers.
The PTO is still dealing on the fault and investigation a possible REIN issue.
We have been suggested to review this on 15-06." Back to it being a REIN issue?
June 15th 2011 - Update from BT states; "ON this fault suppliers have update latest notes states that PTO found that duct and cable is required please provide estimate so work can be done. There is no estimate date provided on this. Suppliers advised to check tomorrow for more update.
Thanks & Regards,
Broadband Customer Service Team Leader"
I guess no REIN issue afterall?
June 16th 2011 - No further update.
June 17th 2011 - No further update.
June 18th 2011 - No further update.
June 19th 2011 - No further update.
June 20th 2011 - Zen contacted BT who advised; "Duct work is being undertaken by BT Openreach. They have advised that there will be an update available on 21st PM."
June 21st 2011 - Zen update; "I have been through to BT who advise that this duct work is now complete. We will check to see how this affects the stability of the line"
Success at last???
I check the line when I get in from work. Still exactly the same. All the symptoms remain. I inform Zen and ask them to go back to BT.
June 22nd 2011 - Update from BT; "PTO task is completed. Duct work was carried out. He confirmed customer was connected." Obviously the engineer did not check to see if the specific symptoms had been resolved, just that the line was connected (which it always has been throughout the problems!) ARGH. Useless ******* BT!!!!!
This is where it starts getting very confusing, as BT's own updates start contradicting themselves...
June 23rd 2011 - Update from BT; "We have contacted the suppliers who have informed that the PTO who was assigned on this has checked and confirmed that all is ok.
Hence there was no duct work carried out.
As you have informed that the issue is still there, would need an SFI engineer to progress further the escalation." No duct work carried out?! WTF? I ask Zen to clarify with BT..
BT come back with two separate emails which state;
"when the engineer informed initially regarding the duct work, this was checked by the PTO engineer and found not to be needed, after which the task was closed."
"I have checked with the suppliers and they have confirmed that the duct work is completed, customer now has a working session."
So one update stating the duct work had been completed, the other stating it wasn't even required. But regardless of BT's conflicting views on what has happened - the actual problem remains unresolved!!! Requested that Zen escalate the issue once again.
June 24th 2011 - Update from Zen; "We have requested a complete breakdown of the the fault from start to finish from BT, including everything that has happened including the parts where BT wholesale have gaps in their knowledge and need to speak with Openreach. We are also pushing for a fresh PTO visit to do a full end to end check"
June 25th 2011 - Update from BT;
"07/06/2011 – Engineer requested the fault to be passed to the PTO.
09/06/2011- Fault passed to suppliers escalation queue to carry out investigation
10/06/2011 – Review provided for 12-06
13/06/2011 – Informed regarding the PTO visit for 13-06, to be reviewed on 14-06
14/06/2011 - PTO has found that duct and cable is required. Form sent to planning team.
16/06/2011 – review provided for 18-06
19/06/2011 – Task passed to repair team
21/06/2011 – Task closed after confirmed working with customer adam. Line tested ok, asked to close Fault not found"
Zen have replied to them stating they want the full notes, not just bullet-pointed summaries, and also the full details going back to when the fault was first diagnosed including full engineers notes and the notes form Openreach and the planning department.
I also pointed out to Zen that at no point have BT contacted me to confirm the state of the line, and if they had, i obviously wouldn't have said it was working! So that last update "confirmed working with customer adam etc etc" was a complete fabrication.
June 27th 2011 - Issue is still with BT having been escalated once again...
July 3rd 2011 - Update from BT; "An A55 is submitted to planning Team for new duct and cable changeover to cure broadband problems. The job is with the planning team and it will take some time to set up the estimation for the cabling and jointing work."
July 7th 2011 - Update from BT; "We have checked with the suppliers and they have contacted the controls team who advised that task is Awaiting Financial Authorisation from Planning Manager. This process takes time so they have advised us to check in next week for more updates. We will check with the suppliers on Tuesday and will update you accordingly."
Zen have also managed to get some of the Openreach engineer notes, see below;
20/03/2011 – Engineer completed the task - D side UG, Local network changes made by BT engineer for broadband use. Notes - D side UG
Notes - EU reports dropping connection. Sync on arrival at Primary Connection Point down-2528k. Using JDSU with no errors, valid PPP session. Tried 4 pairs from PCP to JF4, no8 Station road. All have errors, possible REIN issue sending back to CP, Pair Quality test passed ok @ JF4 os no8 Station road on all Pairs.
07/06/2011 – Emailed CP on the escalation regarding the engineering task completion.
Notes - Please pass to pto. pto require d to help solve problems off of this dp 476 and dp 475. bb lines are dropping connection and now have got more and more slower. tried different e-side but still the same tried d-sides from pcp2 to jf 4 b/o dp482, bb then shows and improvement but doesn't last long. I believe faults are on d-side but again still finding it a problem to solve. they have been a cable changed over in the last 6 month which was the problem before. spoke to coach and only solution is to have pto onsite. eclipse & pq test always pass. I have inform adam at no 18 to what is to happen next. there is issues at no12, 18, 28 [**] and no 25 [**] over last few weeks and have not be resolved.
July 12th 2011 - Contractors for BT starting digging trench and laying ducting from telegraph pole outside my house along to a junction box about 20m up the road (seemingly cutting through my neighbours phone line in the process). BT Openreach to follow with the laying of new cables - eta July 18th 2011 for task completion.
July 20th 2011 - Having been fobbed off for the past two days when enquiring why there were no Openreach vans outside my house fitting the new cables (completion date of the 18th remember!) This morning I wake to find an Openreach van and a big Openreach truck outside with engineers busily doing their good work. Excellent. ;D
I get an update from BT just after lunch;
"Hi,
All work has been completed now. All ducting and 40 metres of cable have been laid and the job has been closed off. Let’s hope this was worthwhile and makes some difference to your customer.
Please retest and advise.
Thanks,
Kind regards,
High Level Escalations Team Gatekeeper
Customer Relationship Management | BT Wholesale"
I return home to find that nothing has changed........
July 22nd 2011 - Update from BT; "I and my colleague have carried out thorough investigations on this line and the neighbouring lines.
I have checked other circuits on the DP and all have been running very similar to your customer’s with the SNR of 0dB which has only recently dropped. It is running similar at times to the other lines on the DP with regards to speed etc but then the SNR just dips to 0dB on this one circuit.
All the lines are long which I’m sure you already knew, and their speeds are not the best.
So from what I am seeing all lines have been running similar but your customer’s has the dips to 0dB. The times it does this are random with no pattern whatsoever The line is also dropping now and then but the majority of the issue is this dip to 0dB. The dips are more than likely caused at the end user end (BT network side, not end users equipment) as other circuits are not experiencing these dips. The broadband is fit for purpose but this customer’s is probably being pushed to the limit if it is being used for gaming etc
I think we have no option but to send another engineer to see if the line can be improved anymore.
If you can advise of customer availability I will arrange an appointment to get this investigated further.
I was considering a TPM but don’t want to jeopardise the working circuit as it could end up having a detrimental affect and the issues do seem to point to the network as opposed to the port."
The words "fit for purpose" in their update worry me tremendously...
As that smells to me like they're going to push to have the issue closed off if they're unable to find the source of the fault after their next engineer visit
July 25th 2011 - Update from BT when trying to book the engineer to come out to investigate further;
"I have raised a trouble report but ironically the line test failed showing a dial tone fault. A DT fault is either customer end or PSTN related. This type of fault is a “next available” and not appointed as it will be a line engineer that needs to go out to look at this.
Once this has been actioned we will reassess to see if this has had any bearing or improvement to the broadband and decide if we need to book a broadband engineer after this time.
There should be no need for the customer to be available for this particular visit."
I think i'd be over-optimistic if i were to think that this has been the problem all along, and will fix the underlying issue..
July 26th 2011 - Update from Zen;
"Hi Adam,
The openreach engineer did not find any DT faults on the line.
BT are requesting an engineer to come to site to do a complete end to end test.
We have provisionally booked the appointment for tomorrow 27th pm slot.
Can you let us know if that is ok for you, or let us know when you are available.
Regards,"
July 27th 2011 - I had two Openreach engineers turn up briefly. (visit #6)
One of them said he'd been round the village looking at various sources of REIN that he'd found (he confirmed he wasn't a REIN engineer, but nevertheless had been round with an AM radio to look for sources).
He said he'd found 3 sources of REIN at different locations throughout the village, although he didn't elaborate what or where they were. He said this issue was affecting a number of households in the village - all with outstanding broadband problems.
He did say that he'd tried "suppressing" some of the sources (again, how this was done i don't know) and he thought that it may have fixed the problem. He added that the equipment he was using to detect the REIN had now broken, so he couldn't do any further testing.
At the time they arrived (approx 3:20pm) the stability of my connection was better than i'd seen it for a long time - with minimal SNR margin dips and errored seconds on the router (although i'm not ever generally home during the day to test it - so at the time i couldn't say whether this was due to the work they'd done, or if it was just due to the time of day).
The second engineer then plugged her device into the phoneline and performed some sort of test which seemingly came back fine.
So at this point it was looking like they had indeed resolved the problem.
However within an hour of them leaving, the connection was back to normal (i.e. 0.0dB dips constantly).
Both Openreach engineers were still in the area as they had been looking at a neighbours' issue. I went out and spoke to them again to confirm the problem was still apparent.
The engineer that had been performing the REIN "tests" said he would go up the road and do a few more checks and then write up his report.
I informed Zen of all the above and asked them to pass back to BT..
July 28th 2011 - Update from BT;
"I have spoken to the REIN Team, the REIN issue has been identified and closed off this morning.
The engineer went out yesterday and this morning and has liaised with several people in the village. He had identified 3 sources of REIN and has addressed them by suppressing them with a RF3 filter.
The issue should be resolved, if you can check with your customer as to any improvements."
I re-affirmed my previous update to Zen that the issue is no different.
I also swapped my router back over to my NETGEAR model which is compatible with Routerstats so I could capture the SNR margin drops..
July 29th 2011 - Update from Zen;
"BT have advised that the next step is to carry out a Tie Pair Modification.
This will move you on to a completely new line card and DSLAM at the exchange and will result in some downtime as they have to physically move your connection.
This rules out an issue with the port on the line card and any issues that may be caused by the line card and DSLAM
If you are happy for this to be done, then let us know and we will get this actioned with BT as quickly as possible.
Regards"
I confirm I am happy for this to happen ASAP.
August 1st 2011 - Update from BT;
"TPM is done and customer is in sync on the new CBUK.
Please retest.
Thanks"
No change - everything still exactly the same. Asked Zen to pass back to BT.
August 3rd 2011 - Update from BT;
"I have tested the circuit this morning and can see errors on the upstream. It looks like we are going to have to arrange another engineer visit to look at both the network and the REIN issue. Whilst installing filters will go some way to screening interference it won’t eradicate it altogether.
The customer does need to be aware though that REIN isn’t BT’s responsibility and is only investigated as a gesture of goodwill because it is affecting the broadband. There are very few REIN trained engineers and those that are REIN trained can’t always get hold of the specialist equipment needed. They sometimes have to travel several miles to attend a job so to manage the customer’s expectations it could turn out to be a lengthy investigation.
You say that the customer’s neighbours have reported issues with their CP’s but there are no other faults reported whatsoever on the NCIF this customer is on. There are 306 circuits but only this one fault. It could be that the other circuits are on a different NCIF.
So, if once again I can ask you for the customer’s availability I will arrange the appointment.
Kind regards"
REIN is mentioned as i have been running routerstats on my line 24/7 for the past week. This has shown that the drops to 0.0dB generally show a trend towards being present more early in the morning and then late afternoon onwards until about 2-3am. Between these times there are periods where i get little or no drops at all. However this isn't always the case.
I have advised BT of this, which is why REIN is again back on the radar..
So I await their next visit.....
August 4th 2011 - Update from BT (after visit #7);
"Hi,
I have just cooped with the engineer who has been on site all morning. There is no fault on the line, they have checked all joints and cable, most of it has been renewed anyway. The engineer saw the dips but they are not caused by any line faults. The REIN engineer has been out with the SFI this morning and any REIN issues they were able to detect were actioned last week. There is no more that Openreach can do. The wiring has all been replaced, e and d side and there is nothing faulty for him to replace in any case. The port has been changed also so we have eliminated that.
The speed the customer is achieving is more than acceptable for this length of line and db loss, as for the dips there is nothing on the Openrach network causing this.
We have reached a stalemate with this as there is nothing else we can do, everything possible has been done for this customer. The line just goes and then comes back with no other reason other than being a completely random SHINE (single high impulse noise event).
We will not be able to resolve this, we do not have engineers that can find this.
The only thing I can suggest is that the router PSU be changed and maybe investigate any other electrical equipment with a power brick which might be on its way out but other than that we will not be able to help any further.
It would appear that this is down to the environment but there is no actual fault causing this.
Kind regards"
The Background
Moved into a house in Sept last year, located in a village in Bedfordshire. ADSL provided by Zen via the exchange 4.73km straight-line distance away. Actual line length probably closer to 6km.
Line has always been a solid 1Mb with the BRAS profile sometimes creeping up to ADSL 1250 on occasions.
Router used = Edimax AR-7284WnA running the latest firmware 1.0.6. Connected to BT Test Socket. PC connected to router via ethernet.
BT line goes from master socket to telegraph pole outside on street. This pole is connected to various underground junction boxes which feed my line approx 0.5km to the green cabinet in the centre of the village.
Connection was stable for all online activities (streaming, downloading, gaming etc) up until March this year when the problem began...
The Problem
March 4th 2011 - I notice when playing an online FPS game that i'm getting what seems to be periods of near-constant packet loss (lots of "running on the spot", lots of "teleporting" - just basically all the signs of a laggy connection) However my ping remained normal throughout.
I then checked by streaming something on youtube, this had similar results (I have a bandwidth monitor that tells me how much traffic my PC is generating at any given time) and it showed that the stream was "cutting out" at intermittent intervals where the connection would still be active, but the stream would essentially stop completely for a short period of time and then resume it's download.
I experience similar symptoms when testing with anything that uses the internet connection (a chat on Skype would be rendered inaudible for short periods of time etc etc)
Having checked my router I found that it was reporting thousands of errored seconds (although no HEC, OCD or LCD errors reported)
I also noticed that the SNR Margin was intermittently fluctuating from it's normal 7-8dB right down to 0.0dB for short periods of time, before retuning back to the normal 7-8dB range.
I noted that the errored seconds being reported by the router were increasing in-line with the SNR margin drops I was seeing.
Further testing also showed that the SNR Margin drops were occurring at the same time I was experiencing the problems with my connection (as described above)
Router rebooted made no difference, so i log the fault with Zen Tech Support.
The Investigation
As with all ISP's, I was asked to perform all the normal checks to rule out the problem being at my end; replaced filters, cables etc. I even went out and purchased a new router to test, which turned out to be worse than my existing router in being able to handle the SNR Margin drops to 0.0 - with it constantly dropping sync.
Interestingly, Zen couldn't see any of the errored seconds on the line, even though the router was reporting literally tens of thousands for each 24hr period. They could however see that the router was losing sync with the exchange regularly (now that the alternative router was plugged in and dropping sync all the time) and so they booked in a BT engineer to investigate an "intermittent connection".
March 16th 2011 - Engineer comes out to house (visit #1) and checks connection. He see's there is an issue (BRAS profile by this time has dropped to ADSL150 due to all the disconnects) and goes off to investigate.
He calls an hour or so later from the exchange to say "he thinks he's fixed it". By this time i'm back at work, so can't test the connection until i get back home.
I get home to find everything exactly the same. SNR Margin still constantly dropping to 0.0. All symptoms the same.
I inform Zen that the problem has not been fixed.
March 17th 2011 - Zen confirm to BT that the issue is not resolved.
March 18th 2011 - BT engineer (visit #2) booked for Sunday 20th March - AM appointment.
March 20th 2011 - No sign of any engineer - waited all morning. Queried situation with Zen.
March 21st 2011 - Zen update to confirm engineer did attend, but didn't require access to my premises. Engineer performed D-side swap. Zen want to monitor connection for 24hr period to see if issue resolved.
March 22nd 2011 - No difference to the connection, still all the same issues. Spoke to neighbour, he confirms lots of problems with his internet since early March too. Confirm all this back to Zen.
March 23rd 2011 - Zen arrange for BT Engineer (visit #3) to attend March 24th - PM.
March 24th 2011 - BT engineer attends premises (speaks to the missus this time, as i'm at work) again tests the line and see's there are problems. Goes off to "investigate further" in the village / exchange.
March 25th 2011 - Update from Zen re; previous day's engineer visit - BT Engineer notes read; "EU in sync on arrival, but EU said he is facing very intermittent issues. Eclipse test ok. ADSL test show CRC errors. There is a REIN issue in area. REIN issue Ref 2755 that was built on job SM7XAF72. Have reported to SFI about REIN issue."
So looks like they'd discovered a REIN issue... As it was Friday, Zen suggested there wouldn't be any further update until Monday 28th....
March 28th 2011 - Update from BT via Zen to say that the REIN fault is raised, and that they are still working on it.
March 29th 2011 - Update from BT via Zen to say REIN engineer assigned, but no ETA.
March 30th 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit.
March 31st 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit.
April 1st 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit. Although connection seems to be back to normal (aside from BRAS profile which is still stuck at ADSL500). Did they fix something??
April 2nd 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit. Spoke to Zen, confirmed line seems to be back to normal aside from the BRAS profile. Requested manual raising of profile.
April 4th 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit. Zen get BT to manually adjust BRAS profile back to ADSL1000.
April 5th 2011 - No further info on REIN engineer visit. Monitoring of line stability ongoing. So far so good.
April 6th 2011 - Update from BT via Zen to say; "REIN team have confirmed that job is closed as engineer has visited site and found no evidence of REIN. Current test results shows line is stable for 3 days now with a speed of 1 Meg". Line still stable, Zen close their ticket as issue resolved.
So... It seems that the problem just went away by itself after 28 days of constant issues. Strange, but I didn't really care as I had my internet connection back.
April 26th 2011 - ARGH! The problem is back (after 25 days of working fine). Exactly the same symptoms - just started again out of the blue. I re-raise with Zen.
April 28th 2011 - Zen re-raise fault with BT.
April 29th 2011 - BT want to arrange engineer visit, I explain to Zen that it would need to be a weekend visit as I cannot take any more time off work. Zen will go back to BT.
April 30th 2011 - No further update.
May 1st 2011 - No further update. Line seems to be back to normal again..
May 2nd 2011 - No further update. Line is indeed working as normal. Inform Zen.
May 6th 2011 - Zen close off fault.
So that was a little 5-day "blip" of the problem, after which everything went back to normal again...
May 23rd 2011 - Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! The b**ch is back. Exactly the same symptoms etc etc.
May 24th 2011 - I report to Zen that the issue has returned and request they log with BT.
May 25th 2011 - Update from Zen to confirm BT has stated there is an issue outstanding at my exchange which has to be resolved before they can investigate further.
May 26th 2011 - BT confirm issue at exchange resolved. I confirm problem still outstanding on my line. Ask Zen to chase with BT.
May 27th 2011 - No further update.
May 28th 2011 - No further update.
May 29th 2011 - No further update.
May 30th 2011 - No further update.
May 31st 2011 - Update from Zen to ask when BT engineer can attend (visit #4) to investigate. They inform me that earliest appointment would be June 7th. I ask for issue to be escalated as i don't want the issue disappearing again before BT have a chance to fix it.
June 1st 2011 - Zen escalate issue with BT management.
June 2nd 2011 - BT Manager confirms to Zen that he will "see this fault through personally". Engineer arranged to attend exchange to fix E-side (as that is where they think the problem lies) on June 7th (visit #4).
June 8th 2011 - Update from Zen; Thank you for the update. We have the engineers notes from the visit yesterday;
"The engineer has indicated an issue with the D-side of the network (the part from your premises to the Green Street Cab).
The engineer was fully aware of the issue that you have been having and saw it happen as well. However this engineer was unable to resolve the issue.
Engineer spoke to his Team Coach, who advised that they would need to send a specialist engineer to investigate the issue.
Engineer also advised that there are other people in the area having the same issue that have not been resolved.
The fault is not in BT Openreaches Escalation queue, waiting the assignment of the PTO Engineer to investigate that fault.
We have been advised by BT Wholesale that the next update will be tomorrow 09/06/11."
Maybe some progress at last? Hopefully PTO engineer will be able to finally shed some light on the issue....?
June 9th 2011 - PTO Engineer (visit #5) confirmed for June 13th.
June 13th 2011 - PTO Engineer calls me to confirm what speed my router would usually sync at. During the brief discussion, he confirms he'll be investigating from the pole to the exchange.
June 14th 2011 - Update from BT states; "Checked that the fault was dealt by the quality assurance team who have checked with the suppliers.
The PTO is still dealing on the fault and investigation a possible REIN issue.
We have been suggested to review this on 15-06." Back to it being a REIN issue?
June 15th 2011 - Update from BT states; "ON this fault suppliers have update latest notes states that PTO found that duct and cable is required please provide estimate so work can be done. There is no estimate date provided on this. Suppliers advised to check tomorrow for more update.
Thanks & Regards,
Broadband Customer Service Team Leader"
I guess no REIN issue afterall?
June 16th 2011 - No further update.
June 17th 2011 - No further update.
June 18th 2011 - No further update.
June 19th 2011 - No further update.
June 20th 2011 - Zen contacted BT who advised; "Duct work is being undertaken by BT Openreach. They have advised that there will be an update available on 21st PM."
June 21st 2011 - Zen update; "I have been through to BT who advise that this duct work is now complete. We will check to see how this affects the stability of the line"
Success at last???
I check the line when I get in from work. Still exactly the same. All the symptoms remain. I inform Zen and ask them to go back to BT.
June 22nd 2011 - Update from BT; "PTO task is completed. Duct work was carried out. He confirmed customer was connected." Obviously the engineer did not check to see if the specific symptoms had been resolved, just that the line was connected (which it always has been throughout the problems!) ARGH. Useless ******* BT!!!!!
This is where it starts getting very confusing, as BT's own updates start contradicting themselves...
June 23rd 2011 - Update from BT; "We have contacted the suppliers who have informed that the PTO who was assigned on this has checked and confirmed that all is ok.
Hence there was no duct work carried out.
As you have informed that the issue is still there, would need an SFI engineer to progress further the escalation." No duct work carried out?! WTF? I ask Zen to clarify with BT..
BT come back with two separate emails which state;
"when the engineer informed initially regarding the duct work, this was checked by the PTO engineer and found not to be needed, after which the task was closed."
"I have checked with the suppliers and they have confirmed that the duct work is completed, customer now has a working session."
So one update stating the duct work had been completed, the other stating it wasn't even required. But regardless of BT's conflicting views on what has happened - the actual problem remains unresolved!!! Requested that Zen escalate the issue once again.
June 24th 2011 - Update from Zen; "We have requested a complete breakdown of the the fault from start to finish from BT, including everything that has happened including the parts where BT wholesale have gaps in their knowledge and need to speak with Openreach. We are also pushing for a fresh PTO visit to do a full end to end check"
June 25th 2011 - Update from BT;
"07/06/2011 – Engineer requested the fault to be passed to the PTO.
09/06/2011- Fault passed to suppliers escalation queue to carry out investigation
10/06/2011 – Review provided for 12-06
13/06/2011 – Informed regarding the PTO visit for 13-06, to be reviewed on 14-06
14/06/2011 - PTO has found that duct and cable is required. Form sent to planning team.
16/06/2011 – review provided for 18-06
19/06/2011 – Task passed to repair team
21/06/2011 – Task closed after confirmed working with customer adam. Line tested ok, asked to close Fault not found"
Zen have replied to them stating they want the full notes, not just bullet-pointed summaries, and also the full details going back to when the fault was first diagnosed including full engineers notes and the notes form Openreach and the planning department.
I also pointed out to Zen that at no point have BT contacted me to confirm the state of the line, and if they had, i obviously wouldn't have said it was working! So that last update "confirmed working with customer adam etc etc" was a complete fabrication.
June 27th 2011 - Issue is still with BT having been escalated once again...
July 3rd 2011 - Update from BT; "An A55 is submitted to planning Team for new duct and cable changeover to cure broadband problems. The job is with the planning team and it will take some time to set up the estimation for the cabling and jointing work."
July 7th 2011 - Update from BT; "We have checked with the suppliers and they have contacted the controls team who advised that task is Awaiting Financial Authorisation from Planning Manager. This process takes time so they have advised us to check in next week for more updates. We will check with the suppliers on Tuesday and will update you accordingly."
Zen have also managed to get some of the Openreach engineer notes, see below;
20/03/2011 – Engineer completed the task - D side UG, Local network changes made by BT engineer for broadband use. Notes - D side UG
Notes - EU reports dropping connection. Sync on arrival at Primary Connection Point down-2528k. Using JDSU with no errors, valid PPP session. Tried 4 pairs from PCP to JF4, no8 Station road. All have errors, possible REIN issue sending back to CP, Pair Quality test passed ok @ JF4 os no8 Station road on all Pairs.
07/06/2011 – Emailed CP on the escalation regarding the engineering task completion.
Notes - Please pass to pto. pto require d to help solve problems off of this dp 476 and dp 475. bb lines are dropping connection and now have got more and more slower. tried different e-side but still the same tried d-sides from pcp2 to jf 4 b/o dp482, bb then shows and improvement but doesn't last long. I believe faults are on d-side but again still finding it a problem to solve. they have been a cable changed over in the last 6 month which was the problem before. spoke to coach and only solution is to have pto onsite. eclipse & pq test always pass. I have inform adam at no 18 to what is to happen next. there is issues at no12, 18, 28 [**] and no 25 [**] over last few weeks and have not be resolved.
July 12th 2011 - Contractors for BT starting digging trench and laying ducting from telegraph pole outside my house along to a junction box about 20m up the road (seemingly cutting through my neighbours phone line in the process). BT Openreach to follow with the laying of new cables - eta July 18th 2011 for task completion.
July 20th 2011 - Having been fobbed off for the past two days when enquiring why there were no Openreach vans outside my house fitting the new cables (completion date of the 18th remember!) This morning I wake to find an Openreach van and a big Openreach truck outside with engineers busily doing their good work. Excellent. ;D
I get an update from BT just after lunch;
"Hi,
All work has been completed now. All ducting and 40 metres of cable have been laid and the job has been closed off. Let’s hope this was worthwhile and makes some difference to your customer.
Please retest and advise.
Thanks,
Kind regards,
High Level Escalations Team Gatekeeper
Customer Relationship Management | BT Wholesale"
I return home to find that nothing has changed........
July 22nd 2011 - Update from BT; "I and my colleague have carried out thorough investigations on this line and the neighbouring lines.
I have checked other circuits on the DP and all have been running very similar to your customer’s with the SNR of 0dB which has only recently dropped. It is running similar at times to the other lines on the DP with regards to speed etc but then the SNR just dips to 0dB on this one circuit.
All the lines are long which I’m sure you already knew, and their speeds are not the best.
So from what I am seeing all lines have been running similar but your customer’s has the dips to 0dB. The times it does this are random with no pattern whatsoever The line is also dropping now and then but the majority of the issue is this dip to 0dB. The dips are more than likely caused at the end user end (BT network side, not end users equipment) as other circuits are not experiencing these dips. The broadband is fit for purpose but this customer’s is probably being pushed to the limit if it is being used for gaming etc
I think we have no option but to send another engineer to see if the line can be improved anymore.
If you can advise of customer availability I will arrange an appointment to get this investigated further.
I was considering a TPM but don’t want to jeopardise the working circuit as it could end up having a detrimental affect and the issues do seem to point to the network as opposed to the port."
The words "fit for purpose" in their update worry me tremendously...
As that smells to me like they're going to push to have the issue closed off if they're unable to find the source of the fault after their next engineer visit
July 25th 2011 - Update from BT when trying to book the engineer to come out to investigate further;
"I have raised a trouble report but ironically the line test failed showing a dial tone fault. A DT fault is either customer end or PSTN related. This type of fault is a “next available” and not appointed as it will be a line engineer that needs to go out to look at this.
Once this has been actioned we will reassess to see if this has had any bearing or improvement to the broadband and decide if we need to book a broadband engineer after this time.
There should be no need for the customer to be available for this particular visit."
I think i'd be over-optimistic if i were to think that this has been the problem all along, and will fix the underlying issue..
July 26th 2011 - Update from Zen;
"Hi Adam,
The openreach engineer did not find any DT faults on the line.
BT are requesting an engineer to come to site to do a complete end to end test.
We have provisionally booked the appointment for tomorrow 27th pm slot.
Can you let us know if that is ok for you, or let us know when you are available.
Regards,"
July 27th 2011 - I had two Openreach engineers turn up briefly. (visit #6)
One of them said he'd been round the village looking at various sources of REIN that he'd found (he confirmed he wasn't a REIN engineer, but nevertheless had been round with an AM radio to look for sources).
He said he'd found 3 sources of REIN at different locations throughout the village, although he didn't elaborate what or where they were. He said this issue was affecting a number of households in the village - all with outstanding broadband problems.
He did say that he'd tried "suppressing" some of the sources (again, how this was done i don't know) and he thought that it may have fixed the problem. He added that the equipment he was using to detect the REIN had now broken, so he couldn't do any further testing.
At the time they arrived (approx 3:20pm) the stability of my connection was better than i'd seen it for a long time - with minimal SNR margin dips and errored seconds on the router (although i'm not ever generally home during the day to test it - so at the time i couldn't say whether this was due to the work they'd done, or if it was just due to the time of day).
The second engineer then plugged her device into the phoneline and performed some sort of test which seemingly came back fine.
So at this point it was looking like they had indeed resolved the problem.
However within an hour of them leaving, the connection was back to normal (i.e. 0.0dB dips constantly).
Both Openreach engineers were still in the area as they had been looking at a neighbours' issue. I went out and spoke to them again to confirm the problem was still apparent.
The engineer that had been performing the REIN "tests" said he would go up the road and do a few more checks and then write up his report.
I informed Zen of all the above and asked them to pass back to BT..
July 28th 2011 - Update from BT;
"I have spoken to the REIN Team, the REIN issue has been identified and closed off this morning.
The engineer went out yesterday and this morning and has liaised with several people in the village. He had identified 3 sources of REIN and has addressed them by suppressing them with a RF3 filter.
The issue should be resolved, if you can check with your customer as to any improvements."
I re-affirmed my previous update to Zen that the issue is no different.
I also swapped my router back over to my NETGEAR model which is compatible with Routerstats so I could capture the SNR margin drops..
July 29th 2011 - Update from Zen;
"BT have advised that the next step is to carry out a Tie Pair Modification.
This will move you on to a completely new line card and DSLAM at the exchange and will result in some downtime as they have to physically move your connection.
This rules out an issue with the port on the line card and any issues that may be caused by the line card and DSLAM
If you are happy for this to be done, then let us know and we will get this actioned with BT as quickly as possible.
Regards"
I confirm I am happy for this to happen ASAP.
August 1st 2011 - Update from BT;
"TPM is done and customer is in sync on the new CBUK.
Please retest.
Thanks"
No change - everything still exactly the same. Asked Zen to pass back to BT.
August 3rd 2011 - Update from BT;
"I have tested the circuit this morning and can see errors on the upstream. It looks like we are going to have to arrange another engineer visit to look at both the network and the REIN issue. Whilst installing filters will go some way to screening interference it won’t eradicate it altogether.
The customer does need to be aware though that REIN isn’t BT’s responsibility and is only investigated as a gesture of goodwill because it is affecting the broadband. There are very few REIN trained engineers and those that are REIN trained can’t always get hold of the specialist equipment needed. They sometimes have to travel several miles to attend a job so to manage the customer’s expectations it could turn out to be a lengthy investigation.
You say that the customer’s neighbours have reported issues with their CP’s but there are no other faults reported whatsoever on the NCIF this customer is on. There are 306 circuits but only this one fault. It could be that the other circuits are on a different NCIF.
So, if once again I can ask you for the customer’s availability I will arrange the appointment.
Kind regards"
REIN is mentioned as i have been running routerstats on my line 24/7 for the past week. This has shown that the drops to 0.0dB generally show a trend towards being present more early in the morning and then late afternoon onwards until about 2-3am. Between these times there are periods where i get little or no drops at all. However this isn't always the case.
I have advised BT of this, which is why REIN is again back on the radar..
So I await their next visit.....
August 4th 2011 - Update from BT (after visit #7);
"Hi,
I have just cooped with the engineer who has been on site all morning. There is no fault on the line, they have checked all joints and cable, most of it has been renewed anyway. The engineer saw the dips but they are not caused by any line faults. The REIN engineer has been out with the SFI this morning and any REIN issues they were able to detect were actioned last week. There is no more that Openreach can do. The wiring has all been replaced, e and d side and there is nothing faulty for him to replace in any case. The port has been changed also so we have eliminated that.
The speed the customer is achieving is more than acceptable for this length of line and db loss, as for the dips there is nothing on the Openrach network causing this.
We have reached a stalemate with this as there is nothing else we can do, everything possible has been done for this customer. The line just goes and then comes back with no other reason other than being a completely random SHINE (single high impulse noise event).
We will not be able to resolve this, we do not have engineers that can find this.
The only thing I can suggest is that the router PSU be changed and maybe investigate any other electrical equipment with a power brick which might be on its way out but other than that we will not be able to help any further.
It would appear that this is down to the environment but there is no actual fault causing this.
Kind regards"
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Mmm, sorry I can't really suggest anything. Couple of other forums worth trying are Kitz and ThinkBroadband ... 
Soldato
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damn. Was expecting a resolution at the end.
Can you plug your router electrical plug into a neighbours house, but still on your line? House electrics?
Can you plug your router electrical plug into a neighbours house, but still on your line? House electrics?
try and rule out any electrics in your property...had a fridge/freezer, less than 12 months old that had a fault causing no end of problems. Of course, the only way you can do this is to unplug everything (or at least as much as you possibly can)
Or better yet - get/borrow a UPS to regulate and clean the power.
Yes an active line regulator 'should' do the trick. It's the sort of thing I needed to use with my surround sound unit when I was at my parents place. They'd switch on the hoover, and even though a modern house, would make the surround sound unit go funny. A basic UPS (or surge protection) wasn't enough.. full line regulation was the only way to solve it, other than fixing the issues with the actual wiring (which really should have been ok as a modern house).
But.. just realised, probably getting off-topic here, think we are guessing...
But.. just realised, probably getting off-topic here, think we are guessing...
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Deleted member 651465
Deleted member 651465
I know how you feel, I had a new line put in around February and it hasn't worked for longer than a week solid. Every day drops in speed with no real pattern.
Also confirmed REIN
In fact, I've had 5 visits from Openreach and I even have his REIN detector in my house as he came last Friday and offered to lend it to me to see if I could find the problem.
So frustrating! If you have an AM radio though, tune it to 612Khz and try to find a source that is emitting a loud buzz. Electric fences are notorious, but it can be literally anything.
Also confirmed REIN
In fact, I've had 5 visits from Openreach and I even have his REIN detector in my house as he came last Friday and offered to lend it to me to see if I could find the problem.
So frustrating! If you have an AM radio though, tune it to 612Khz and try to find a source that is emitting a loud buzz. Electric fences are notorious, but it can be literally anything.
Im the same i have a long line think its around 63.5db on adsl2+ and 60.5 on g.dmt, i think the max my connection can handle is 3mb tops normally syncs at 3070kbps so more like 2.5mb but the longest my line has synced for is 30hrs it drops out pretty much early morning everyday with the speed sometime increasing. I had bt come out fit me a filtered faceplate on my 1st extension socket as i have one of these external masters but still getting the same issue. I have a street light right outsite my front door pretty much and i have wondered if that would play a part in this, all be it my phoneline cable is underground
Deleted member 651465
Deleted member 651465
REIN will affect underground cabling.
Almost any source within half a mile radius can affect it. Energy saving bulbs are bad, so it might be worth checking your light on/off to rule it out
Almost any source within half a mile radius can affect it. Energy saving bulbs are bad, so it might be worth checking your light on/off to rule it out