Some advice

Soldato
Joined
29 Jul 2011
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Near Northants / MK
I think this is probably my first delve into this section, so hello guys!

I'm after some advice on numerous different things.

The first is: I want to get my hands into photography, well I think I want too. I want to be able to take some pleasing images I know that much, of what I'm not sure, probably landscapes or something similar.

So what should I buy to start learning? Budget is a little up in the air, I would prefer buying second hand due to better value for money that way. What do I need to ask when I'm buying? What should I be looking for? I'm thinking less than £200 for the body and lens and preferably any accessories I should need.

I assume I should go into a store and take a look at some?

The second is: I took a photo whilst I was out in London a few months back, honestly I thought "Oh, that looks good (I love the Shard)" so took a picture it wasn't until I looked at it that I realised it was a pretty good shot. What this means I have no clue, perhaps I have a good eye. I'm not sure, however the main question is, is it any good? If so, what's good about it? What could be improved?

Picture:
SHARDCopy.png

You'll have to excuse the mobile phone quality and the intrusive watermark :D


Thanks,
Josh

e; Knew I'd forget something, I've taken a look at the sticky but unsure on what bits relate to me as it were.
 
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for proper learning experience, i think you should try to start off with traditional DSLR from the likes of nikon, canon, pentax. There are other solutions out there, but for buildiing solid skills foundation i would use those as starting point (but also see my last point).

Things to consider at this moment:

- how much are you willing to carry? (weight and bulk space wise) it's easy to think yea yea yea, i can carry this that and 5 million other pieces of equipment, but soon you realise you are being weighted down and it will take its toll in your energy level i.e. creativity/abiltiy to focus your mind. e.g. you will forget to check certain settings like leaving ISO too high and only found out when you get home that the photo is full of digital artifact (noise).

- have you got friends that are already into the photography? it's always best to start off using the same system (brand) as them so they can teach you. also they will have lens that you can try out. as your first camera, you will probably stick with 1 or 2 lens for the time being, then try to explore different style of shooting and ultimately choose the lens to allow you to do it better.

- it may be worth while to think hard do you really need interchangeable lens? some camera these days have all the features built-in. one thing i found over the years is that, some time it's just too easy to get sucked into the equipment-blaming mindset. i.e. "only if i have that lens..." or "only if the camera body can do X Y and Z....". then all of a sudden, you lost the creativity because you default thinking the camera cant do certain shots. some time it's actually better to just have one camera without any add-ons, then you will be forced to think-on-your-feet and thats when you can maximise your creativity.
 
Honestly I was meant to post in here, I made an impulse buy of a 400D in the MM, seen it at a good price so went for it.

Don't know anybody (well, I sort of do but they're only a beginner).
I did find out what you said about leaving ISO or a setting turned on or up/down. When I was in London I had changed a setting on my phone to close up mode and forgot to change it back which ruined the photo as it was full of noise. I think I'll stick with the 18-55mm lens until I need something different and then I'll come pick your brains over in here.

I'm going to read the stickied thread today and learn everything I need to know, I've done some research into fnumber however still a lot to learn!
 
Honestly I was meant to post in here, I made an impulse buy of a 400D in the MM, seen it at a good price so went for it.

Don't know anybody (well, I sort of do but they're only a beginner).
I did find out what you said about leaving ISO or a setting turned on or up/down. When I was in London I had changed a setting on my phone to close up mode and forgot to change it back which ruined the photo as it was full of noise. I think I'll stick with the 18-55mm lens until I need something different and then I'll come pick your brains over in here.

I'm going to read the stickied thread today and learn everything I need to know, I've done some research into fnumber however still a lot to learn!

400D is good stuff. back then there weren't so much cost cutting features, so 400D is quite fully loaded even for entry level model.

generally my mind will go through this process all the time after finding the photo composition:

0. can i trust my light meter reading? (do i need to adjust exposure compensation)

1. what shutter do i need

2. what does that translate to in aperture while keeping ISO as low as possible

3. if i start using very low F number (near maximum aperture of the lens) can i lower it by compromising on shutter

4. if no, then the only route is to push higher ISO (normally start with ISO 200 in day light and ISO400 for indoor and night time) .

5. go back and double check. if shutter speed unavoidably slow, then go and find a wall or something that will give your extra support. :D

a bit of explaining:

Step 0, for very black object, your light meter will overexpose everything else in order to obtain "correct amount of light" from the black object, opposite is true for white object. so be mindful when it comes to shooting these objects. you may opt for different metering methods (center, spot, average and matrix)

step 1 will make sure i get rid of motion blur and some time if I decide to go for certain style of photos like long exposure on night scene or silky waterfall effect.

step 2 is to make sure exposure is correct (in manual mode, i will keep an eye on light metering. in shutter priority (Tv on Canon), I will let the machine calculate aperture. but still keep an eye on the light meter)

step 3 as you step down (i.e. go higher in F number), your final image becomes sharper (apart from the highest F number where light bending becomes an issue and final image will be affected again. so stick with the middle with aperture for maximum optical performance)

step 4 is where you control ISO. the higher it is, the more noise it is. so keep it low if you can. but dont force yourself too hard on it because if your shutter speed is too slow, then you will get blurred image anyway.
 
Hmmm, thanks for that :D I have got a lot of reading to do but decided it would be best for me to have a play with one whilst reading so it stays in my mind.
 
Hmm, some questions.

I definitely like Macro photography more so insects and flowers etc than inanimate things. However I know I need to be using Av however when I do that (I'm indoors practising on things like coins) however I'm not sure if it's because I'm indoors or not but I'm getting long shutter speeds like 5seconds or so which because I have no tripod yet is causing shake. However when I go into Tv mode or manual mode (come back to this in a minute) and set the shutter speed to 1/40th it auto sets the aperture to f4 which gives me the direct affect I'm after (only the object in focus, blurry background), why does aperture priority give me a silly shutter speed?

Sorry if that doesn't make sense.

My second question is, I'm on a tightish budget, I don't want to be spending £500 on a lens, but I'm happy to spend perhaps £200ish second hand for a good lens. So what lens could I use for Macro images however also perhaps use for portraits and maybe sports shots? I have the opportunity to go to cricket matches often so whilst it's not fast paced it's still a lot of movement.

Also, when in M mode, I understand (hopefully corrected) this is the full manual mode (I never use auto focus, am I wrong to do this?), however I use the what I'll refer to as the scroll wheel (not sure on the technical term) to change the shutter speed, but how do I change the aperture/fnumber if at all possible?

tl;dr: Why does Av give me a 3 second shutter speed when Tv and M on the same fnumber give me a much shorter shutter speed? And what lens would be good for ~£200 second hand for Macro/Sport/Portrait. I don't mind if it can't have any of these things but would just like to know if there's anything out there worth considering. Am I wrong considering a Tamron A17 70-300 mm F/4-5.6 AF Di LD Lens?
 
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I use the what I'll refer to as the scroll wheel (not sure on the technical term) to change the shutter speed, but how do I change the aperture/fnumber if at all possible?

I don't have a 400D on hand to check, but try holding down the "AV" button (middle-ish, top) on the back of the camera while you turn the wheel that you've been using for the shutter speed.
 
I don't have a 400D on hand to check, but try holding down the "AV" button (middle-ish, top) on the back of the camera while you turn the wheel that you've been using for the shutter speed.

You're a star! That works. Well that's one question answered :D
 
The wheel works for whatever mode you're in. If you're in Shutter Priority mode, it controls the shutter speed - in Aperture Priority mode, it controls the aperture. In Manual mode, it normally defaults to the shutter speed but, as oio said, pressing one of the buttons will switch it to controlling the aperture.

To answer your first question, you're getting those long shutter speeds because the camera is trying to balance the exposure based on the aperture (or f number setting) you've set. You need to understand that each time you increase the f number setting you're actually making the aperture smaller. So a setting of f8 is smaller than f5.6 but it's bigger than f22. What this means is that the smaller the f number, the bigger the aperture, and therefore the more light gets to the sensor. Conversely, a big f number means a smaller aperture and so less light reaches the sensor. In fact, each increase in the f number will halve the amount of light - each decrease doubles the amount of light.

To compensate for these aperture changes, the camera will adjust the shutter speed. A faster shutter means less light and a slower shutter means more light. So if you change your aperture from f4 to f5.6 you have halved the amount of available light and, to maintain the same exposure, the camera will automatically increase the shutter speed twice as much to compensate. If you change the aperture from f4 to f8, you have reduced the available light to a quarter, so the camera compensates by quadrupling the shutter speed, or making it four times slower. That explains why you get the longer shutter speeds in Aperture Priority mode.

With your second question, a good 90mm or 100mm macro lens can be used as a portrait lens. The thing to be careful of is not to buy a lens just because it says it's "macro". A true macro lens is able to reproduce objects at lifesize on the sensor so the magnification will usually be given as 1:1. Some lens manufacturers refer to half lifesize, or a magnification of 1:2 as "macro" or even lenses with a magnification of 1:4 or lower. If you're keen on true macro work, then you should be looking for that 1:1 magnification. It is still possible to take close-up pictures with the other magnifications but they won't be lifesize.

The lens you mention would be fine as a starter lens for your outdoor sports, i.e. cricket, as it will get you closer to the action. You can use it as a portrait lens at the lower end of the range, between 80mm and 100mm, but it won't be ideal at isolating the subject from the background because of the small f4 aperture. The magnification is 1:2 so anything you capture will be shot at half lifesize.

There's nothing wrong with using manual focus - we all had to do the same before Minolta introduced the first autofocus cameras. However, autofocus has come on in leaps and bounds and it's much faster than trying to focus manually. Predictive focus is also better nowadays so it can be easier if you're shooting sports or the subject is travelling at speed. It's still not perfect though as the camera can't predict where you're looking so manual focus can be a better option with tricky compositions. Also, there are two schools of thought when it comes to using autofocus - focus on your subject, then hold the shutter button halfway down to retain the focus and recompose your picture; or compose your picture and use the arrow keys on the camera to move the focus point onto your subject. Both methods have their pros and cons but, in manual focus, you don't have to worry about either because you retain control over which part of the image is in focus or not.
 
Thanks :) May have to look into getting that lens after bag + tripod etc.
Perhaps another question, what kit should I buy? I need a bag, and I'd like a tripod. But should I buy things like a lens hood and UV Filters?

I guess deciding when to use auto focus and not is a thing of case by case scenario.
 
Some feedback on your picture. It is quite hard to ignore the watermark and I'm not a great fan of using them, certainly not slapped into the middle of the picture like that.

For me, the real problem with the image is the exposure. There's no detail in the shadows as the mobile has exposed for the bright sky. This means that all the faces of the people are underexposed. The sky itself also lacks detail as it's been washed out by the exposure. Technically, you can correct these flaws in Photoshop or Lightroom if you'd taken the picture in RAW format. You can still correct some of the flaws if it's a JPG although not quite as well as RAW. Alternatively, you could try to get the exposure right to begin with by exposing for the faces and leaving the Shard in sillouhette. Or take two images, one correctly exposed for the faces and the other for the Shard, and merge them in Photoshop.

As for the composition, this is one of those instances where it would've helped to break the usual conventions about rule of thirds, etc. I would've tried to get the Shard right in the middle of the picture with equal amounts of building on either side so that they provided a lead-in frame. With the composition you have that effect isn't quite achieved because there's more of the sky on the right of the Shard than the left.

However, having said all that, you've nearly got the effect - it just needs a little tweaking and taking one or two steps to the right before you press the shutter ;)
Moving to the right would also have helped reduce, or even eliminate, whatever that structure is that runs halfway up the building on the right. Steps? Fire escape? Whatever it is, it seems a bit incongruous to me.
I might also have taken a few steps forward as well, so that the two buildings extended right to the top of the frame - or to crop it that way in Photoshop.

Here's an idea of what you could do with the picture although, as you say, noise is an issue:

SHARDCopy1.jpg
 
You'll usually get a lens hood with the lens. If not, they can be picked up pretty cheaply or you can use a hand to block out sunlight. Personally, I always stick a UV filter on all my lenses as it prevents any damage to the front element.

One thing you'll probably want is a decent strap. Those thing ones they provide with a camera are next to useless. Go for one that's quite wide so it spreads the load on your neck, or else follow the modern trend for straps that secure your camera at waist level.

Stuff to keep your kit clean is also a good idea so a good rocket blower is a must, and a decent lint-free cleaning cloth. I always keep a lens-pen in my bag for removing stuff from the UV filter. Other stuff you'll probably decide you need is a spare battery and storage cards, but they can wait a little longer.

A bag will be essential to keep all the extra stuff in - a tripod will depend on the type of photography you're interested in. If you're going to take pics of street scenes then it probably isn't a priority. Likewise with an external flash - it's useful but not a priority if you're taking most of your pics during the day. It will be needed if you get into macro and/or portraits later on.

A polariser might be a useful addition too but, for now, I'd concentrate on getting a bag, a decent strap, and the cleaning essentials.

Edit: missed the bit about auto focus...it doesn't really matter that much, use the one you're most comfortable with and that gives you the best results. Learning to manual focus accurately and at speed is always a good skill to have but autofocus will get it right most of the time and it's one less thing to have to fiddle around with when you're also wondering if you've set the correct ISO, and when you're trying to set the aperture/shutter speed or both while also composing the picture ;)
 
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novice here myself. my first lens was canon 100mm L macro, its still my favourite. i also started with 400D my GF had

i use manual (M) im not sure if that is best but i do enjoy it, i find if i take 3 shots and 2 are bad i can look at the settings i used and see what was right and why
 
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All this help really does help, so thanks guys. Glosrfc you're absolutely right and I did actually see those things after taking it :( At the minute I've got a lens hood, tripod, bag, rocket duster and uv filter on my shopping list. I will prioritise everything but the tripod for now as I feel those are more necessary items. I've got an extra battery and both are 100% charged, I may buy another battery and compact flash card. What's a good bag for kit?

e; Playing about with aperture, this is using aperture 4. I'm a little confused on why aperture 4 gives me the desired affect however 22 doesn't. Why is this?
Coffee.jpg
 
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e; Playing about with aperture, this is using aperture 4. I'm a little confused on why aperture 4 gives me the desired affect however 22 doesn't. Why is this?

Its all to do with the depth of field (or area in focus) the lower the number the smaller amount that will be in focus e.g f1.8 gives a thin slither of a photo in focus while having f22 with get most of the photo in focus.

try taking a look at this website

http://www.morguefile.com/classroom

There are varous 'lessons' which will help you understand things a bit more. Others recommend taking a look at Bryan Paterson's Understanding Exposure book also.
 
i was using my macro lens on a stamen yesterday with a tube in there as well,
my DoF worked out to be 1mm which would explain why a 2mm long stamen took up half the frame but taking the picture handheld proved very difficult!

one thing i need to get my head round is what 1 stop is in regards to iso/aperture
how much can i change the if i close the aperture by one stop what is the corresponding iso increase to get that 1 stop back
 
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Thanks :) It's a shame all this awful weather has struck as I'd love to get out in the garden. I did try to take a picture of the garden however it was all very out of focusish. I used the whitebalance as cloudy and played around with the aperture and shutter speed but still the end of the garden didn't look great, I'm not too sure if that was down to my movement as I used quite a longish shutter speed or what?

e; @al4x I've been watching 'Mike Browne' on YouTube a lot. I find his videos very educational.
 
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I've been looking at this: http://lenshero.com/lenses/canon-400d-telephoto-lens-less-than-180

I quite like the sound of Canon's 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III USM. Is this a good lens? I wont be using auto focus, I much prefer manual focus. I've decided to change my priorities a little and want to be taking pictures of wildlife, preferably things far away, like being able to take pictures of birds far away however I'd also like to take Macro shots but if that's a no go on this budget then that's ok what budget would be able to accommodate a telephoto + macro lens?
 
one thing i need to get my head round is what 1 stop is in regards to iso/aperture
how much can i change the if i close the aperture by one stop what is the corresponding iso increase to get that 1 stop back

When you adjust an exposure by 1 stop that means that you have doubled, or halved, the available amount of light that reaches the film or sensor. Doubling the light, or increasing, the exposure is called opening up - halving the light, or decreasing the exposure, is called stopping down.

Unless you're stopping down, or opening up, for artistic reasons it's normal to apply a compensatory exposure change if you want to maintain the same exposure. For example, if you decide to increase the shutter speed to catch a moving subject you have stopped down (less light is reaching the sensor) and so you must compensate by opening up the exposure via the aperture or the ISO setting (allowing more light to reach the sensor). In this way the light is balanced and so a perfect exposure can be achieved.

So what is a stop? It's easier to consider shutter speeds first. Starting with a speed of 1 second, it's clear to see when the light is halved or doubled:
1s 1/2s 1/4s 1/8s 1/15s* 1/30s 1/60s 1/125s* 1/250 1/500

Notice that each shutter speed setting is either half, or double, the length of time of the settings on each side (* or close enough that it makes no difference). So 1/60 seconds is twice as long as 1/125 seconds but it's half as long as 1/30 seconds. Changing the shutter from 1/60 seconds to 1/125 seconds has doubled the available light so you have opened up by 1 stop. Changing from 1/60 seconds to 1/125 seconds has halved the amount of light so you have stopped down by 1 stop.

ISO numbers refer to the sensitivity of the sensor (or film) and are also fairly easy to understand as most of them are single stops:
25 50 100 200 400 800 1600

Again you can see that the numbers are half, or double, that of the numbers either side. In other words, your sensor is twice as sensitive with an ISO of 400 then it is with an ISO of 200, whereas ISO 100 is half as sensitive as an ISO of 200. If you change your ISO setting from 200 to 400, you are doubling the light that the sensor can record so you have opened up by 1 stop. Change it from 200 to 100, and you have halved the light that the sensor can record, so you have stopped down by 1 stop.

Things might appear to be trickier with your aperture settings because the f/numbers may appear to be confusing. However all becomes clear once you appreciate that the number doesn't represent a physical size - it's a ratio from which the size can be calculated. I'll explain how they work later but, for now, all you need to remember is that the f/numbers marked on most lenses are given in single stops:
f/1.4 f/2 f/2.8 f/4 f/5.6 f/8 f/11 f/16 f/22

So, just as with the shutter speeds and ISO settings, f/5.6 allows twice as much light to reach the sensor as f/8 does, but only half as much light as f/4 does. Changing the aperture to f/4 has increased (opened up) the available light by 1 stop whereas changing it to f/8 reduces (stops down) the light by 1 stop.

Hopefully you can already see the answer to your question now, but I'll make it even clearer. If you open up your shutter by 1 stop, then you stop down either the aperture or the ISO by 1 stop - to maintain the same exposure. If you stop down your shutter by 3 stops, then you must open up the aperture or ISO by 3 stops - to maintain the same exposure. Whatever exposure change you apply to one setting, you must apply the opposite change in another setting - to maintain the same exposure.

Here's a quick example. Your camera has measured the scene and suggests an exposure of 1/60s at f/4 on your ISO setting of 200. However, your subject is moving quickly so you decide to increase the shutter speed to 1/125s. You have actually stopped down by 1 stop, so to maintain the same exposure, you need to open up the aperture by an equivalent 1 stop, i.e. you must change it from f/4 to f/2.8. But what if you want to keep the original aperture setting? In that case, to maintain the same exposure, you must open up the ISO by changing it from 200 to 400.

You can also combine the settings. Assuming your camera suggests the same exposure - 1/60s at f/4 with an ISO of 200. You decide that you want much more depth of field so you stop down the aperture to f/8 which is 2 stops different from the original exposure. Because you've forgotten your tripod, you are going to risk hand-holding the camera but you know that 1/15s won't work. So you open up the the shutter by just 1 stop, to 1/30s, and you also open up the ISO by 1 stop to 400. Once again, you have balanced the exposure.

If you do nothing else, but memorise those single stop numbers, you will be well on your way to understanding how to balance any exposure.

But what about all those other numbers you see?
Most cameras are designed so that you can make adjustments in half- or one third-stops. So, depending on the complexity of your camera model, you might see shutter speeds of:
1/30 1/45 1/60 1/90 1/125
These intermediary numbers are half-stops - 1/45s allows half as much extra light as 1/30s but prevents half as much light as 1/60s.

Or shutter speeds like:
1/30 1/40 1/50 1/60 1/80 1/100 1/125
These are third-stop settings. 1/50s allows two-thirds as much light as 1/30s but only one-third as much light as 1/60s.

Some lenses might also have half- or one third-stop f/numbers marked on them although it's more common to see these indicated in the viewfinder on digital cameras:
f/2.8 f/3.2 f/3.5 f/4 f/4.5 f/5 f/5.6 f/6.3 f/7.1 f/8
Once again, these are one third-stops with the full stops marked in bold. So you can make adjustments to the aperture, or shutter, in smaller increments and also make the same complementary adjustments to the shutter, or aperture, in the same small increments. So, using the earlier example, opening up your shutter speed by one third stop from 1/60s to 1/45s requires you to stop down the exposure by one third from f/4 to f/4.5 to maintain the same exposure.

ISO settings are usually given in single stops but it was relatively common in pre-digital days to buy film that was measured in one third-stops:
50 64 80 100 125 160 200

So that hopefully explains what all the various numbers you can see displayed in your camera actually mean. More importantly, it should help you to understand how you can make exposure adjustments in one setting but then balance them up in another setting to maintain the correct exposure. You should now have figured out that, if you close (stop down) the aperture by one stop then you must open up the ISO (or the shutter speed) by 1 stop.

Why are f/numbers so funny?
There's no need to read this bit if you don't want to...but here comes the simple science. I mentioned earlier that f/numbers are just a ratio. This ratio is a way to calculate the size of the aperture (and therefore the amount of light reaching the sensor) for any lens. The calculation is quite simple and there's a big clue in the way we write the f/number down: the aperture diameter = the lens focal length / f/number. So a 50mm lens with an f/stop of f/1.0 is f (focal length) / 1.0 or 50/1 = 50mm. There, wasn't that easy? With an f/stop of f/2.0 then it's f (focal length) / 2.0 = 25mm. An f/number of f/1.4 is 50 / 1.4 = 35.7mm

This way of calculating an aperture size by using the f/number ratio holds true for any lens.

The more astute readers might now ask ahh, but why is f/1.4 a single stop number when the diameter isn't half the size at f/1.0, or double the size at f/2.0? Which is a good question with a relatively simple answer. Unfortunately, unlike halving a shutter speed or an ISO setting, reducing the diameter of the aperture doesn't half the amount of light. That's because an aperture is a circle so it's the area of that circle which actually determines the amount of light reaching the sensor. Again, this can all be calculated, so bear with me while I keep it simple with three examples:

You'll remember from school that the radius of a circle is pi * r squared, or 3.14159 times the radius of the circle multiplied by itself. Here's an example using the same 50mm lens at f/1.0:
diameter = 50 / 1 = 50mm
radius = 25mm
r squared = 625mm
area = 3.14159 * 625mm = 1963 sq. mm

With an f/number of f/2.0:
diameter = 50 / 2 = 25mm
radius = 12.5mm
r squared = 156.25mm
area = 3.14159 * 156.25mm = 491 sq. mm

With an f/number of f1/4:
diameter = 50 / 1.4 = 35.7mm
radius = 17.85mm
r squared = 318.87mm
area = 3.14159 * 318.87mm = 1002 sq. mm

So, as you can see, the area of an aperture at f1.4 is almost half the size of the area with an aperture of f/1.0 so this is a single stop. Similarly f/2.0 is almost half the size of the area at f/1.4 so this is the next single stop. And that's why all the other f/numbers are single stops...f/4, f/5.6, f8, f/11 and so on. The area of light reaching the sensor at the specified ratio is half or double the amount of light for the next ratio, irrespective of what size of lens you are using.

It's actually possible to calculate the f/number in the field by reversing all of these calculations. For example:
Your original aperture was f/4 with a 50mm lens and you have opened up the shutter by 1 stop - what aperture do you need to use to compensate in order to maintain the same exposure?

You know that the diameter is 50/4 = 12.5mm so the area is 3.14159 x 6.3mm squared or 124.7 sq. mm with an f/number of f/4.0. Dividing that area by 2 (you need to half it to reduce the light by 1 stop) we get 62.3 sq. mm which we can now convert into an f/number:
62.3 / pi = 19.85 mm
Square root of 19.85 = 4.45mm radius
Diameter of aperture = 4.45mm x 2 = 8.91mm
50mm focal length / 8.91mm = f/5.6

Wow, who would've guessed that? I wouldn't suggest you really do this in the field as it's far easier to just use the markings on your lens, but you should now understand how f/numbers work and how to calculate them if you ever need to.
 
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