Sound card with 7.1 support

Guggsy · 25 Feb 2019 at 13:55

Hey people me again.

I have posted something similar to this on other threads but people tell me there is nothing available unless I use HDMI. I have recently built a new PC with quite high specs and a good sound card would have topped it off, but as I have learnt from previous threads, I will struggle to find a sound card that will do what a want.

Basically I have a Creative labs ZXR sound card connected to my Denon X2200 via optical lead. As I want true digital, this will only give me 5.1 digital at best, Dolby/DTS digital.

I have heard there is a new creative labs sound card coming soon the sound blaster X AE-9. I was hoping it would give me digital 7.1 rather than analogue, as I want to run it through my amp. After getting in touch with creative labs regarding issues with my ZXR I questioned them about the AE-9 and was told that the new card will only support 7.1 analogue also. very disappointed.

My question is this, is there any sound card out there that will give me true digital 7.1 output rather than 5.1. if not is there any other way I can connect a sound card to my amp to give me 7.1.

I use my 2080ti to get Dolby Atmos and 7.1 support, but having a dedicated sound card would be better.

Any ideas?

Marsman · 25 Feb 2019 at 14:32

The problem is that SPDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interface), which is the standard used by optical and coaxial connections, can only support a maximum of 5.1. It's a limitation of the technology that was created in the 1980s.

It doesn't have the bandwidth to support 7.1.

Without Dolby or DTS encoded stream, SPDIF can only support stereo if it is uncompressed. Dolby and DTS encoding and compression allows 6 channels to be sent over SPDIF. Maybe it could support more, but it would require more compression; so you'd end up with more channels, but the quality would be degraded.

For uncompressed 7.1, your only option is HDMI as it has a much greater bandwidth compared to SPDIF.

james.miller · 25 Feb 2019 at 14:45

I wasnt lying when i explained this in your other thread

You need HDMI for 7.1 and support for multi channel PCM, DTS:Master Audio, Dolby TrueHD and the newer object-based Atmos.

What do you have against using your GPU for this?

Guggsy · 25 Feb 2019 at 15:23

james.miller said:
I wasnt lying when i explained this in your other thread

You need HDMI for 7.1 and support for multi channel PCM, DTS:Master Audio, Dolby TrueHD and the newer object-based Atmos.

What do you have against using your GPU for this?

I wasn't saying you was lying.I trust you 100% :cool:

I was just wondering why is it you have to depend on your graphics card in order to get 7.1. A GPU should work as a GPU, the technology they have in a GPU in order to get 7.1, why haven't the sound card makers jumped onto the bandwagon and give proper 7.1 support. I would have thought after all these years sound card manufactures would have added 7.1 support. that is what sound cards are designed for to give you good sound. as a gpu is designed at give u god graphics. Or is it because people don't rely on sound cards any longer so investment into new technology isn't worth it.

After what you told me I have looked into it further and hoped the new ae-9 when it is released would have supported 7.1 digital but no. It only has optical spdif and 7.1 analogue.

doc · 25 Feb 2019 at 18:03

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here. Both HDMI and a digital output from a good sound card are already the same digital signals straight from the video. As long as you don't have your video player doing any decoding and you're letting your amp do the work, there won't be an increase in quality.

Guggsy · 25 Feb 2019 at 19:00

doc said:
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here. Both HDMI and a digital output from a good sound card are already the same digital signals straight from the video. As long as you don't have your video player doing any decoding and you're letting your amp do the work, there won't be an increase in quality.

No I don't run sound through both, HDMI and optical. I want to be able to use Dolby Atmos. and take full advantage of 7.1 speaker setup through my amp. I thought buying a dedicated sound card would be better than using GPU sound. But as James Miller educated me recently, only 5.1 is available through optical which I never knew, that is why I can get Dolby Atmos using 7.1 setup via my GPU due to the fact it is HDMI giving me a wider bandwidth. now I realise I wasted money in buying a sound card because there are none that will do what I want even the ones that support 7.1. 7.1 analogue yes not digital.

I realise that there are not many games that have Dolby Atmos or 7.1 but there are a few. I want to play movies that have Dolby atmos, or utilize 7.1 digital setup. As I want a PC that will play games at the highest level in sound and graphics and play movies at the highest level available. if I knew that my gpu would do it all apart from DTS for some reason, then I would never have invested in a sound card.

Guggsy · 25 Feb 2019 at 19:01

Also there is a considerable difference in spatial sound between analogue and digital.

Marsman · 25 Feb 2019 at 19:26

Asus did actually make a sound card with HDMI (Xonar HDAV 1.3 Deluxe/Slim) for the purpose of getting uncompressed 7.1, Dolby True HD and the DTS equivalent to an AV receiver. It's long been discontinued though.

I guess there was not enough demand for such a sound card. If it sold well, then surely they would have kept it in production. When GPUs started supporting passing uncompressed digital audio to an external AV receiver, I guess people decided not to bother having an expensive separate sound card when the GPU could do the same thing.

The objective is to get uncompressed 7.1 or Dolby True HD/DTS Master Audio data from the media source to the connected receiver and HDMI is the best transport for that. Whether that data is passed on to the receiver from a sound card with HDMI or a GPU, there is no difference; just as there is no difference between SPDIF on a motherboard and a £200 sound card. An expensive sound card won't do it any better because it is just passing on the audio data. Whatever is connected on the other end of the digital cable, whether it be SPDIF cable or HDMI, is responsible for converting that digital data into sound.

The real benefit of a sound card is for headphone and speakers with analogue input.

There would be no benefit in something like the Xonar HDAV 1.3 slim, because the only purpose of that is it's HDMI connections. A GPU can do the same thing.

The 1.3 Deluxe would have more benefit though, because it's more like a proper sound card. It has analogue outputs as well as HDMI. Someone could connect it to a AV receiver for access to uncompressed 7.1, while also having good quality analogue outputs for any speakers with analogue connection and headphone use.

Guggsy · 25 Feb 2019 at 21:55

I must admit the sound I get through my headphones using the ZxR sound card is pretty good, but if I want big sound then run through my GPU. specially while playing resident evil 2 remake set audio to Dolby Atmos, and running through a Dolby Atmos amp via my GPU.

Guggsy · 26 Feb 2019 at 06:33

Marsman said:
Asus did actually make a sound card with HDMI (Xonar HDAV 1.3 Deluxe/Slim) for the purpose of getting uncompressed 7.1, Dolby True HD and the DTS equivalent to an AV receiver. It's long been discontinued though.

I guess there was not enough demand for such a sound card. If it sold well, then surely they would have kept it in production. When GPUs started supporting passing uncompressed digital audio to an external AV receiver, I guess people decided not to bother having an expensive separate sound card when the GPU could do the same thing.

The objective is to get uncompressed 7.1 or Dolby True HD/DTS Master Audio data from the media source to the connected receiver and HDMI is the best transport for that. Whether that data is passed on to the receiver from a sound card with HDMI or a GPU, there is no difference; just as there is no difference between SPDIF on a motherboard and a £200 sound card. An expensive sound card won't do it any better because it is just passing on the audio data. Whatever is connected on the other end of the digital cable, whether it be SPDIF cable or HDMI, is responsible for converting that digital data into sound.

The real benefit of a sound card is for headphone and speakers with analogue input.

There would be no benefit in something like the Xonar HDAV 1.3 slim, because the only purpose of that is it's HDMI connections. A GPU can do the same thing.

The 1.3 Deluxe would have more benefit though, because it's more like a proper sound card. It has analogue outputs as well as HDMI. Someone could connect it to a AV receiver for access to uncompressed 7.1, while also having good quality analogue outputs for any speakers with analogue connection and headphone use.

It was probably developed way ahead of it's time 10+ years ago, and if you think about it who really had a 7.1 setup, back then. it was mainly 5.1 Dolby still mainstream. How many games and movies had 7.1 digital sound back then. compared to these days. I reckon if they released it again now it would definitely take. With the right marketing.

james.miller · 26 Feb 2019 at 09:14

Guggsy said:
It was probably developed way ahead of it's time 10+ years ago, and if you think about it who really had a 7.1 setup, back then.it was mainly 5.1 Dolby still mainstream.

Well, not many, however the HDAV still supported 5.1 LPCM (supported by just about everything with a HDMI socket) which was still a step up from anything SPDIF supported and that didnt help the HDAV.

How many games and movies had 7.1 digital sound back then. compared to these days. I reckon if they released it again now it would definitely take. With the right marketing.

It wont, because we all have GPUs that support the same audio formats already. Whos going to pay the £80+ they'd charge for such a soundcard when they offer no advantages?

EsaT · 26 Feb 2019 at 09:44

Guggsy said:
It was probably developed way ahead of it's time 10+ years ago, and if you think about it who really had a 7.1 setup, back then. it was mainly 5.1 Dolby still mainstream. How many games and movies had 7.1 digital sound back then. compared to these days. I reckon if they released it again now it would definitely take. With the right marketing.

It wouldn't fare really any better, because it would be very expensive sound card.
It would need having all normal sound card costs and then besides cost of physical implementation, HDMI also has licencing costs.
That would make it even more niche/smaller market product than current sound cards are.
And if that HDMI is used as output, then all that normal sound card part becomes useless cost.
While if you cheap on that D/A and analog circuitry, then it becomes pointless as sound card.

And it's pretty certain that number of people having PC connected to proper surround sound home theater setup hasn't increased.
Enthusiasts already had home theaters decade ago.
With continuous cramming of more and more people into cramped cities likely smaller percentage of consumers would even have the space for such now.

What should be first replaced is the compared to graphics totally ****** up backwards state of Windows game audio system.
Hardware acceleration should be brought back for games, or at least object based sound format, like Dolby Atmos or DTS:X, made standard.
But the licensing costs of Dolby/DTS makes the latter unlikely and game developers would still need to put effort into game sound renderers.
(which are X+Yth priority behind graphics, graphics, graphics, more graphics and some more graphics...)
So hardware acceleration with DirectSound like standard interface would be the better option.

With sound card getting true location data of sound sources (+sound samples) and game's acoustic environment model, it could then calculate selected output channel configuration from original lossless 3D sound data of the game.
For measure 2005's EMU20K of Sound Blaster X-Fi supported 128 3D positioned simultaneous sound sources/"input channels" for game to use.
(internal processing for positional effects etc running was it ~4k channels)

With properly done HRTF you wouldn't even need surround speaker setups for accurate sound.
Head shape customized HRTF with accurate headphones (or reasonably good ones known/profiled for HRTF) could basically replicate all the normal directional/distance distinguishing capabilities of hearing.

Guggsy · 26 Feb 2019 at 16:46

OK guys thanks for the info you have educated me well. I now know not to bother waiting for a new sound card. Only thing is DTS. I have a few movies encoded in DTS and I don't know if anyone else has issues, on play back of DTS encoded movies. If I run the movie via my ZxR sound is fine, but GPU no audio apart form movies encoded in Dolby. If I run the movie through VLC I just get stereo out put. Is there any kind of work around or just use my sound card for DTS encoded movies. I have looked and tried googling the answer but nothing seems to work when I run it through my GPU.