Soundblaster 16 vs AWE32 vs AWE64 vs SB Live!

[Guest2]

The discussion between a few of these cards and the differences appears to have been done a few times on the likes of VOGONS and other retro furums.

My question is though, why upgrade to to a newer card if retro only is required?

I found this old thread for 2000 where someone is asking about mp3 playback on a soundblaster live / awe64. To me its laughable to swap an AWE32 (even SB 16) for a SB Live! but for music listening I use a Naim device anyway.

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/sblive-vs-sb-awe32-old-cards-sound-quality.384358/
I have a Soundblaster Live! (CT4760) which I bought for retro gaming. The Soundblaster 16 emulation was terrible so I replaced it with a Soundblaster 16 ISA card (CT2230) The emulation PCI conflicts were also no end of a pain. Midi sounded wrong too

The SB 16, has real OPL3, no conflicts as isnt PnP and great midi. Oh, and Scream tracker also works which it didnt on the SB Live!

Now I have a query about the AWE32. Is this just a SB 16 with a built in software wavetable which is accessible by the on board hardware SIMM slots?

If I bought a wavetable header for the SB16 (e.g. Waveblaster, DB50XG, Dreamblaster) does this effectively make it an AWE32 with hardware wavetable?

Why bother upgrading to a newer card than the SB16 / AWE32 for retro?

AWE 64 / AWE64 gold I understand was a cleanup of a few mistakes on SB 16 and AWE 32. No distortion at low volume as no amp, AWE features, no or less bugs…HOWEVER… Plug n Play, no OPL3 and no upgradable SIMM slots.

I guess the ultimate card would have been an AWE64 gold with upgradable memory, OPL3 whilst keeping it ISA and non PnP

 

[Guest2]

I mainly use Win 98SE, games around 1998. The SB 16 sounds the same to me as the live, unless playing games after ~2002 which started to use EAX.

I do play DOS games too and use Screamtracker which is where the SB Live! falls apart. The emulation of SB 16 is not nice and in some cases doesnt work at all. Hence my Live! card lives in a storage box. Maybe ill reuse it if I do an XP build for gaming ~2002-2006.

 

[Guest2]

Good points about the cost. I paid more for my SB 16 CT2230 than I did my entire machine (Gateway 550T, including a P3 550 and Voodoo 3)
I do however think if you want OPL3 there is no other way than paying for it. Personally I wanted to re-create my original Soundblaster experience

For a cheap post 2000 build, the Live at ~£15 is fine

 

[Guest2]

The Statement about the SB16 in not entirely true either. Quite a large number of the SB16 cards were PnP (and depending on systems is not really a bad thing, especially with Unisound now able to initialize PnP cards with utter ease.) not all SB16's had OPL3 and the SB16 had no Onboard midi synth whatsoever. It had to ability to host a WT board or an External Module via the Joystick port but due to creative being creative, the MPU interface was bugged and depending on the DSP version you would face one or two bugs, (Hanging notes or stuttering with some games) and this was present in all cards across the SB16 line up.

The Awe32 is a effectively, a SB16 (Bugged) with the EMU8000 Synthesizer attached with also the option to host a WT board /Midi Module on the MPU interface. Adding a WT board onto a SB16 doesn't make it a awe32, it makes it a SB16 with midi capability. You can't select AWE32 in some of the setup programs in games, as it won't be able to find the EMU8000. The Awe64 is more aimed at the Windows 98, as you could load soundfonts in Windows 98 and had the true SB16 compatibility through ISA. You need to place the cards in timelines in relation to the games released and what was being used. OPL wasn't really a thing in 1996 as GM was what soundtracks were wrote on etc.

I'm about to put a SB Live into my Retro machine, along side my Awe32. I don't need to have any of the DOS compatibility stuff installed and can just use it for it's Win98 capabilities and the Awe can do the DOS stuff. I actually have a Setup where i have a Aztech card and a Live working together in DOS. The Aztech is the perfect SB 2.0 Pro card, Gen OPL, True Bug free midi, Really quite output and the Live is used for the stuff that can use 16 Bit digitized sound.

Retro is a broad umbrella in todays scene. Not one card is the Perfect retro card.

There are some Russian dudes on Vogons who have just completed the Awe64 Legacy card, which is what you described, but its about £300 I think. Bit to rich for my taste.

Sorry, the statement was meant about my (CT2230) SB16. I know there are many variants of the SB16 including value versions using different chips like Vibra instead of OPL and PnP / none PnP.
Similar with the AWE32, im sure there are some that dont support the WT header.

AWE64 legacy sounds instesting. The Waveblaster / Yamaha WT headers are quite hard to come by and when they are available are around £150. I would be interested to hear a AWE64 legacy in comparison to say an AWE32 with DB50XG or SB 16 with DB50XG.

 

[Guest2]

Whilst the AWE64 legacy and X2GS read up as being great cards / boards, they are not retro. In fact they are the opposite, they may sounds lightyears ahead of tech from the 90s... but that is because its tech created 30 years later.

Isnt the whole point in retro finding the best suitable (vintage) card for said applicaiton / game? They do interest me, but there is better tech current age.
Would retro fans even be interested in such new technology? I also imagine retro parts were harvested in the making of the legacy card (awe32 / awe64?)

 

[Guest2]

How is it really a issue though? I don't see why it has to be vintage. Retro doesn't have to be constrained to any ideology's or points. Its fun using different combos of stuff. The reason I never did it way back, because it would have cost an absolute fortune. I'm glad new stuff is being made to use on retro machines and Serdaco is making some really good sound modules, which are using new parts and sound great. The Yucatan he recently released is using news old stock GS Rom's from the 90's and a replicated Turtle beach design. Its like the retro consoles. Lots of new advancements in the picture quality field. The Roland patch set on the X2GS is derived from a midi module released in 1991. The Awe64 Legacy is utilizing the original EMU8000 Synth chip off the awe64 value and an original YMF262. I agree with the harvesting of parts on cards, but maybe they were harvested off fault cards, where the synth was found to be ok.

Maybe its just me, I ain't hell bent on being period correct etc. I can see why some people like to replicate a machine they had from their childhood, but I like to build machines which hve awesome capability and can make the most out of the library of games I want to play, and experience different sound outputs from different cards/modules. There really are some big differences!

It's not an 'issue' more that retro hardware to me is vintage hardware, not new things made to work as old. Other people, like yourself see retro differently.

Personally im really not a fan of the whole 'retro' mini consoles. Why would you bother buying a mini emulator in a small shell when you can get the real thing for cheaper? I guess my main dislike though for mini consoles is the often poor emulation. I had a Megadrive mini, granted not a Sega branded one but it was shocking

That's a good thing if they are harvested off faulty cards, gives them new life

In short, both vintage retro and 'new retro' (?) have their place

As above some people just like to max out what is capable in the area... Many of us could not afford wavetable cards back when... I had no idea about anything other than standard soundblaster midi until a couple of years ago but since then I have been able to go and appreciate what I missed out on back in the day.

As a child I had the SB 16, so it was the card grew up in the mid 90s with so purchased one not long ago. I had listened to a friends AWE32 and AWE64 in the late 90s which sounded incredible but were way out my reach as a ~12-15 year old child. The Wavetable boards were only things of tech magazines Who would have known that 25 years later I would be researching them along with things like a Roland SC-88 with the option of buying them

 

[Guest2]

I loved my AWE32. I even had an 8mb RAM upgrade for it which I used to load high quality midi sound fonts.
It took many years before on-board sound (or USB headphones and speakers) became high enough quality that I no longer bothered with add-in sound cards.

How long did you have it before upgrading?
I kept using internal soundcards right up until my Xonar Essense ST card, then I went to a Soundblaster G6 X (external usb dac/amp)

 

[Guest2]

Once I got a machine without ISA slots, and I got a PCI SBLive card instead. I can't remember what I did with it unfortunately.

Are right
I thought you meant you kept using the Awe32 right up until recently getting an external dac.

Yeh, after my SB16 I got bought a SB Live, then audigy 2, then Xonar essense st.
All great cards but the original SB16 is the one I remember most

The Essense ST for music listing on a NAD amp and B&W speakers though was a different level. Those 603s and NAD C370 powered many a houseparty

 

[Guest2]

This is a great vid of wavetable/midi devices:

Duke Nukem 3D - Intro (Grabbag) comparison of 76 wavetable/MIDI devices - YouTube

I thought the Creative renditions sound dreadful, the best being Roland SC and Yamaha DB50XG.

I have seen this before. Same with me, Roland SC and DB50XG. The 'Creative Sound Blaster 16 ASP (CT1740)' sounds similar to the DB50XG to my ears. Its something underlying thats similar, but nowhere near as good as the DB50XG.
The AWE and quite a few other sound quite harsh at certain points. Some sound a bit too slowed down if that makes sense

I agree with @almoststew1990 there are many other great tracks, so using one isnt always fair on one/all cards. One track may sound better on one device/card than another.

My memory was of E2L7, Lunar Reactor track 'Aliens, Say Your Prayers!'

How I remember it

@SexyGreyFox That shows 'The page isn’t redirecting properly' I'll have a listen if its hosted anywhere else

 

[Guest2]

Its the one card I don't own (Gravis Ultrasound). Just far to expensive for its limited support in games. It does sound awesome in the games that support it mind, and was No.1 in the tracker/demo-scene.

Wasnt the UltraSound the demise of Gravis? (along with the Soundblaster AWE 32 coming to market)

I seem to remember after the failing GUS, Gravis were only known for joysticks & joypads