Sourdough and starters

[famas]

Solely all things sourdough, recipes, tips and tricks!

I know there is a bread thread all ready but as sourdough is such a broad subject I thought it would be good to have its own thread.

I've just started out with my first ever sourdough starter.
As I usually bake at least once a week I thought it would be nice to try some active yeast culture instead of the 7g fast action yeast packets.

Its been fermenting for 6 days now and is starting to smell nice and sweet, I think its nearly ready to use in a loaf.



Started with 50g of strong white bread flour and 50g water.
day 2 I added another 50g flour and 50g water.
after that I removed 50g of starter and added 50g flour, 50g water for the rest of the week.

Maybe not a true sourdough stater as I couldn't find any rye flour. Going to have another look today.

So far I've made sourdough pancakes which where lovely.



and last night make a sourdough pizza



Again was fantastic!

Going to be trying all sorts of different baking as I've read you can use sourdough starter in pretty much any baked good to replace dried active yeast.

Any one got any tips or recipes for anything they have made with sourdough starter post away!

 

[famas]

First go at a sourdough loaf didn't come out to well.
Seems I used the starter too soon after taking it out of the fridge.
From what I've read I need to feed it and leave it 24 hrs on the worktop before using.

I got very little rise from the starter after 6 hours so the loaf was very dense. Also forgot to score the top, not that it would have made much difference.



It's a shame as it had a lovely flavour.



Going to have another go tomorrow and hopefully note down the recipe.

 

[famas]

Funnily enough I always prove my pizza dough for at least 24hrs in the fridge but recently due to less time I've been making the dough on the night and fast proving it in the oven on the prove setting. This is a 40c temperature with steam.

I make the dough then fast prove for 40 mins, knock it back then fast prove again for 40 mins and its ready to use.
The dough seems to be far superior to my longer prove method.

I normally only bake once a week so keeping the starter in the fridge and feeding it once a week shouldn't be to bad, I just have to remember to take it out a couple of days in advance!

looking forward to some other creations from you guys.

 

[famas]

Cool, let us know how you get on.
Can you set a timer for 40 mins on your micro wave? seems a long time for a microwave.

If you have an electric oven you should be able to set it to 35-40c on the standard "hot air" setting. Helps to warm the oven and pizza stone before turning it right up when you're ready to bake.

I had my second go at sourdough pancakes this morning. The starter is over 2 weeks old now and the flavour seems to be getting better.



Just had a bit of maple syrup and a pinch of sugar, they where nice!

Recipe was

75g sourdough starter
75g plain flour
75g semi skimmed milk
1 large egg
1/2 tsp bicarb
pinch of sea salt
pinch of sugar

Just put it all into a bowl and mix really well, then leave to sit for 30 mins before using.

This is enough to make two thick 9" pancakes. If you like your pancakes thinner add a little more milk.

Off to have another go at the sourdough loaf now.

 

[famas]

Indeed, I'm just using a cheap bag of strong white bread flour for my stater and it seems to be going well.

Also if you use a large enough jar there is no need to discard any starter when feeding once the starter is established. I think the main reason people discard starter is so it doesn't spill over as their starter rises.
I've not discarded any starter in over a week and must have got around 800-900g. My jar was starting to get full so I've given 200g to my mother as she was interested to give it a go too.

Just finished my second loaf.

recipe
125g very strong white bread flour
62g dark rye flour
62g wholemeal flour
5g sea salt
130g starter
130g warm tap water

Started with 130g starter in a large bowl.



Next weighed out 125g of white flour and added 25g of it to the starter



I added a drop of warm water to the starter and flour then mixed it well and left it for 30 mins.



Next I weighed out 62g or rye flour and 62g of wholemeal flour and added it to the rest of the white flour with 5g of sea salt.



Next I added 130g of warm tap water to the starter and mixed well.



Then added the starter mix to the flour mix



And kneaded for a good 15 mins, then placed into a lightly oiled bowl.



It's going to prove now over night. I'm going to fold it after 6 hours and bake it first thing in the morning.

I want to experiment with my steam over to come on in the early hours so I have fresh bread ready for the morning but this will take a bit of trial and error I think.

 

[famas]

Ah I see, good to know. I'll grab another jar when I'm out so I can keep it fresh.

 

[famas]

Well the second attempt was a complete disaster.

I don't have a proper banneton or proving bowl so I just put the dough into a ceramic dish to prove over night.

When I came back to it in the morning it had stuck to the dish and upon trying to turn it out the loaf ripped in half.

That was the end of that.

So third attempt using a slightly different recipe this time.

500g very strong white bread flour
250g starter
15 salt
370ml water

made it the same was as before but this time did zero kneading. Instead I folded the dough every 30 mins a total of 6 times then left it to prove in a well floured bowl over night.

Morning came and I could see the loaf had risen well but I wasn't going to chance getting it out the bowl so cooked it in the bowl.

20 mins at 200c with full steam.
then a further 40 mins at 160c with no steam.

And finally an edible sourdough loaf.



Inside texture isn't too bad. It has a nice crunchy top and sides and the inside is almost crumpet like.
I think It's a little too salty so will reduce the salt next time. but over all I'm happy with it.



I don't think I was using enough starter on the first 2 loaves as I didn't get much rise out of them.

I also use just white flour as I wasn't sure if my start was reacting badly to the addition of rye and wholemeal?
As its an all white flour starter, Or maybe it was just that I wasn't using enough.

I might try a rye starter as well but rye flour is a lot more expensive.

 

[famas]

double post

 

[famas]

Cheers for the info lego, interesting that you add yeast to your sourdough.

What yeast do you use and what ratio?

Unfortunately my ovens max temperature is 230c though I did try it at these temps I found the top too crisp for my liking.
I like a nice crunch but not too burnt.

I found cooking for 15 mins at 200c with steam then reducing to 160-180 without steam for the duration made a nice loaf.

Also your right about the salt, the last loaf was a bit too salty so I will reduce it next time.

Today I made sweet waffles.

Recipe
2 medium eggs
300ml milk
225g self raising flour
1/2 tea spoon baking powder
pinch of seat salt
40g caster sugar
100g unsalted butter, melted and cooled.
125g sourdough starter

Crack the eggs into a bowl and whisk in the milk.
Add the dry ingredients and mix well
Add the sourdough start and mix
Lastly add the melted butter and fold into the mix. Don't over mix at this point as the waffles may come out tough.




Added a little icing sugar and nutella



They turned out lovely. Nice and crispy on the outside and fluffy on the inside.



What to make next???

 

[famas]

Cheers for the info. I've not tried using fresh yeast before but always fancied giving it a go. It's just getting hold of a small portion is the problem. I'll ask in the supermarket next time I go.

Friday/Saturday night is pizza night. Second go at the sourdough base using the improved recipe and wow that was the best pizza I've had in a long time. I think it was almost restaurant quality. I'm never eating supermarket pizza's again.



Crust was nice and crunchy, maybe could have charred a bit more. Also needed to dust off the excess flour but the dough was quite sticky.



inside was light and chewy. I went easy on the toppings to avoid the base going soggy.

it was lovely.

 

[famas]

Those waffles look amazing, going to try them next.

As for the waffles I made, I only left the mixture to rest for 1 hour before using as it starts as batter rather than a dough.

Again the pizza dough I made around 3pm. Mixed all the ingredients in a large bowl then folded the mixture every 30 mins or so. Then for the last 30 mins I formed the dough into a ball and quick proved it in the oven at 35c.
This seems to really get the yeast going and forms nice air pockets. I stretch it straight away, add the toppings and back into the oven on a pizza stone at 230c for 12 mins.


I'm not completely sold on fridge proving......yet, I don't know if its a fad thing or not? the Egyptians wouldn't have be able to do it back in the day?

Maybe a slower prove helps to develop flavour but I watched a video recently from a Neapolitan pizza maker who was adamant you should never fridge dough.

I honestly am on the fence at the moment BUT I have a sourdough loaf in the fridge tonight which I'll bake in the morning and let you know

 

[famas]

I think most Neapolitan pizzas are made with 00 tippo flour which I believe has a gluten content of around 12% which is similar to strong bread flour?

I tried counter top proving dough for about 18 hours and it came out way over proved. I think 12 hours max is the limit.
That maybe way people retard the dough in the fridge so they can make it the night before and use it when they get home from work the next day.

Does a 20+ hour retarded dough taste better than a 12 hour ambient temperature prove? I dunno.

But this loaf I made last night and retarded in the fridge for 12 hours. I added some dark rye flour and it tastes excellent!

Recipe
400g very strong white bread flour
100g dark rye flour
250g starter
5g sea salt
pinch of sugar
270ml water



I added some sesame seeds and Nigella seeds for a bit more flavour.



Crumb is pretty good. I'd like it a little more open but I think its down to my folding technique not being quite right.



Baguettes is next!

 

[famas]

Baked the baguette this morning. Same recipe as above but used 125g of 00 flour and 125g of very strong white flour.

Got a nice crunchy crust.





and a nicer crumb this time.
I used the fold method but also kneaded the dough a little too which i think helped.

 

[famas]

I had a go at the waffles from the previous page this morning.
I made the mix last night and kept it in the fridge.

The recipe calls for 135g of pearl sugar but I only bought 70g which I added this morning.
Even with 70g they where just right I think, wouldn't want them any sweeter.



The dough was very sticky so had to use my scraper to work it.



I substituted the fast action yeast for sourdough starter and lessened the amount of flour to compensate.

Because the mix is more like dough than batter it was tricky getting a good shape in the waffle iron.



I let the mix cook for a few seconds which softens it up then I was able to spread it out more evenly.

They rose a surprising amount!



Indeed they are delicious waffles! I ate them on there own with no toppings. Nice and sweet and the pearl sugar gives a nice crunch too.

I also made another baguette. Same recipe as earlier but I added more water 160g and I also added 1g of dried active yeast.

The dough was so wet I didn't think it would come out well at all. It was so sticky I could barely shape it. I did my best to shape it and put it in the fridge over night.
Cooked it off this morning for 15 mins. 5 mins with steam them 10 without and it came out perfect!



Nice crunchy chewy crust and great flavour.

So that's my carbs sorted for the day.



Back to work tomorrow so the baking will slow down now. will be spare time at the weekends only .

 

[famas]

That looks tasty!

 

[famas]

I think for best results you need to feed the starter with 50/50 ratio flour water every 12 hours for 7 days. This should get your starter just about ready after a week.
If I'm reading right you only fed your starter 3 times in a week?

I think it will likely be to young to get a well rising loaf just yet.
Also your starter should smell nice and sweet/yeasty, like fermenting fruit. If it smells floury and damp its not ready yet.

I'd say you should start getting a decent rise from your starter after about a month.

I keep mine in the fridge now and feed it once a week.

One of the most important things with sourdough and getting a good rise is to learn how to "shape" the dough, I can't stress this enough!
If you don't shape the dough correctly the loaf will always spread sideways and not up.

Bake with jack has a good video on how to shape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww78_SfGyQE

He's also done a video on the "windowpane test"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdXQEP-DNNY&t=274s

Also the amount of starter used will affect how the dough behaves.
I'm getting good results from using half of my flours weight in starter. So if I'm using 500g of flour I'll add 250g of starter.

 

[famas]

Finally got my banneton through the post so set out making a sourdough loaf.

Needed to make more dough, I wasn't sure how big a loaf the banneton would hold.



Still got the nice tram lines in the top though.



I'm slowly getting better loaves every time.
This loaf was made with Allison seed and grain bread flour. It's a white flour with a mix of seeds, rye and grains.
It made an excellent loaf with loads of flavour. Will be getting more of it for sure.



It was tasty just with butter but I also made a cheese, tomato and onion sandwich too



I've also been making baguettes every weekend too which are my favourite bread so far, they always come out great and are so tasty.
I was after getting some proper t55 flour and came across this website.

Has any one bought from them before, going to make up a big order to save on shipping.
https://www.shipton-mill.com/flour-direct/french-white-flour-type-55-102.htm

 

[famas]

Interesting mix Paul, What was it like?

Was it bread or more cake like?

 

[famas]

Not had a lot of time over the past few weeks for baking but did mange to make another full loaf in the banneton which I stupidly covered in cling film.
It rose a a lot more than I was expecting and stuck like glue to the cling film. I had to degas the loaf and prove it again but it came out okay in the end, not a complete disaster.



Also made another pizza which I cooked in the oven mostly then finished off under the grill (for a little to long!)
Really have to keep an eye on it under the grill.



Also ordered a bunch of different flour from Shipton Mill.



Main one was some type 55 french flour for baguettes.



Excellent service, order came next day.

I also made a couple of bakers Lames for fun. they are much better for scoring bread over a knife.



I couldn't wait to try some of the t55 flour so tonight I made a quick baguette.

Recipe was
100g t55 flour
50g sourdough stater
3g salt
very small pinch of sugar
70g water with 2g fresh yeast dissolved into it.

Only folded once and proved for an hour but wow what a difference the fresh yeast makes.



It came out really well for a quick effort. Nice crunchy outside with an open crumb inside.



If I get time over the weekend I'll have another go with a long prove and more folds.
I do love a baguette.

 

[famas]

Yeah only 1kg bags. I ordered a few different types of flour as a tester to see what I like.

I'm impressed with the type 55 so far, it made a lovely baguette.

It's much finer than strong bread flour and as such I should have reduced the amount of water in the recipe as it was far to wet at first.
I added a little more flour and it soon came round.

Not heard of Bacheldre, I'll have a look into them too.

I've made a few loafs with a high ratio mix of rye flour and white flour (50:50) but I found the flavour of rye to strong.

I found 20:80 a nice balance.

Am thinking of making a rye starter also and just adding it to 100% white flour to give it the rye flavour. I'm running out of room the in the fridge though!