Speaker/amp setup for new apartment

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Hi everyone! Would appreciate some advice please. I have a friend who has moved into a new flat. He has a large open plan living area where he would like to install speakers connected to a 4K television. He prefers the minimalist look so his electrician has advised him to go for a Denon Amp with 4 Monitor Audio ceiling speakers. Am I right in saying that without a soundbar/front facing speakers he would not get adequate surround sound when watching a movie?
Thanks in advance.
 
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My advice to him would be to get a demonstration of a Soundbar & then a 5.1 system in the same room, so he can get an idea of what he wants to do. Soundbars and 5.1 systems are either right or not right for everyone.
 
He seems set on using ceiling speakers and/or soundbar. Would he need more ceiling speakers with the Denon Amp to get decent surround sound? Or is better off adding a Sonos playbar to the ceiling speaker setup?
 
Yes you can always demo or ask places such as Richer sounds to loan equipment or come out to the flat in order to advise on what is right. This electrician might not be as knowledgeable for the situation. On another note I have the Yamaha YSP 2700 and absolutely love it, I also have an open plan living area, it definitely does not reproduce true surround sound but it does a great job at trying.
 
AV receivers can be configured to run with 4 speakers and still do surround. The most logical layout is Fronts L&R, Surrounds L&R. The centre speaker which isn't there physically gets replicated in "phantom mode". That is to say that the amp steers half the centre channel to each of the two front speakers. With the right sort of front channel speaker system and a room that's nicely damped (lots of soft furnishings and plenty of bookshelves and other stuff to break up the large flat expanses of wall) then this can work very well indeed.

What I would say is that ceiling speakers probably aren't the right sort of front channel speakers. They're firing down rather than straight forward for a start, so the phantom centre image is pointing at the floor rather than the listener. The other thing is "in-ceiling speakers" covers a lot of product. At the top end there are some sublime products, but OMG, they're not cheap. I'm talking £1500+ per pair. Even within a decent manufacturers range there quite a steep performance change from the best down to the entry level.

The final thing is bass. It's hard to generate the sort of convincing sub-bass from in-ceilings or even from conventional bookcase/standmount speakers. For that reason most home cinema installs also include a subwoofer. There are conventional stand-alone subs such as the MA Bronze W10 or BK Electric Gemini/XLS; then there are the in-wall subs designed to accompany in-ceiling speakers. The price/performance ratio isn't as good as the standalone subs but at least they're out of sight.

I completely understand the desire to keep things looking minimal. That's fine but it does involve some trade-offs that have to be understood if the final result is to meet expectations.

Perhaps there are some other products that offer a cross-over solution between minimal visual impact and sonic performance. Monitor Audio makes in-wall and shallow-depth on-wall speakers. Have a look at the MA Soundframe range of speakers. KEF goes even further. Their T series on-wall speakers have a clever driver design that means they can make a finished speaker in its cabinet at just 35mm deep. I've used the KEFs (T201 and T301 series) and they do sound remarkably good for a speaker thinner than an M&S prawn sandwich.

Both manufacturer's ranges include centre and surround speakers as well as the conventional but thin stereo front pair. It would be possible then to flank the TV with L,C,R or just L & R with none of the bulk of a conventional box speaker, but more effective cinema presentation than a typical background music general-purpose in-ceiling.

The other possibility is to mix shallow depth front speakers with conventional in-ceilings for the surrounds. If we are talking about mix 'n' matching then I'd be very tempted to go for a conventional sub rather than the matching slimline units for these ranges. Subs can be hidden under tables, behind sofas etc. Spending double or more than what you need to for a sub that's still only half the depth of something conventional doesn't seem like sensible planning unless space is at an absolute premium.

Oh, and bear in mind with in-ceilings that as much noise travels up in to the ceiling void as it does in to the living space below. If your friend is in the penthouse then that's not an issue. But if there are neighbours above....


That's covered most of the basics about discrete speakers and probably in a bit more depth than you were expecting. The next thing to talk about is the room itself.
 
He seems set on using ceiling speakers and/or soundbar. Would he need more ceiling speakers with the Denon Amp to get decent surround sound? Or is better off adding a Sonos playbar to the ceiling speaker setup?

Playbar won't play nicely with an AV receiver driving other speakers. Definitely not a recommended solution.
 
Thank you lucid, really appreciate that. It's very informative. I did mention in-wall speakers to him but he's doing a full refurb of the place and hasn't decided where he will position his TV and sofa exactly. With the Sonos Playbar my understanding is that he would have to use the Sonos CONNECT:AMP to drive ceiling speakers to act as rears surrounds? The Sonos SUB could also be linked to the system.
 
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I personally wouldn't go down the Sonos route. It's over priced for what you get, IMO. But if being free of wires is THE single most important thing, at all costs, then it works (albeit with power cables instead of speaker wire).

But, he could do FAR better for the money if he goes a more traditional route. With traditional speakers and amp. For example, B&W M1's would make fairly decent surround speakers that are pretty discreet and unobtrusive, if that's what he is looking for. He could then get in-wall speakers for the front LCR (or all round, depending on budget).

For example, the Sonos Playbar, Sub and 2 play 1's comes in around £1600.

For that money, he could have a
Trio of Bowers & Wilkins CWM663 taking care of the front LCR (~£750)
Pair of Bowers & Wilkins CWM664 taking care of the rear (~£400)
A BK XLS200 sub for the bass (~£330)

So that would be £1480 for the speakers. Doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room left over for the amp admittedly. But pushing a bit beyond the cost of the Sonos set-up, the Denon AVRX2400 at £299 would do the job. So a total budget of £1779 would see a MUCH better sounding, MORE minimal set-up than the Sonos stuff. And MUCH more flexible with it too. And "only" £180 more. Of course, it may be worth pushing the amp budget a bit more in this instance, but that set-up would sound MUCH better than the Sonos, which I wasn't to taken aback with in my friends set-up).

I have B&W 685's up front (£500) with a HTM61 centre (£550), and 686 rears (£350, so approximately £1400 for the 5.0) I also have a B&W sub and it all sounds great together. But these are all wall mounted (rears) or on stands (fronts), rather than in-wall, so perhaps not what he is looking for in a minimal build. But don't think he could go wrong with a similar configuration.

I actually have 2 similar set-ups, the other one also has 685 fronts, 686 rears, but with a HTM62 centre (£350) and a Wharfedale sub on the living room system, and again it sounds great. Both systems are driven with old Onkyo 609 amps.
 
I sell and install all the gear you've (and I've) mentioned so far, so I'd say I've got a reasonable handle on the pros and cons of this stuff plus a whole load more. There are also a fair few owners of the gear in this forum too, so their insight should be useful too.

However, it's not just about the gear but the person, their inclinations and their priorities and what they're willing to do to achieve them. In a lot of respects this is more important than the gear. I see this within my business. Folk say they want this or that, but often there's something else behind that which is the real motivation.

You're doing something rather difficult in acting as a go-between and trying to interpret his motivations. It's entirely possible you've only been given part of the picture, and that maybe because your friend doesn't really know yet what he wants yet, or he thinks he knows what he wants until he's shown something else, and again and again and again.

In the short space of this thread so far you've gone from something discrete and minimalist to something far more overt; the Playbar.

We can talk directly about gear, but I'd suggest it's more useful to talk about what your friend's priories might be.For example, Playbar might be right if your friend simply wants "some better bloody sound" for the TV, but not so good if he's looking for those "goose pimples" moments of realism.
 
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