Speaker set up, for lucid or other enthusiasts

Soldato
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19 May 2004
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I replaced my yamaha dsp a1 with a yamaha rx-v1073, if you remember I'm using mission 780se F+R with a 77c and rel strata sub. REL suggest using the .1 out and the neutrik cable connected to speaker outputs.
So what is the best way to set the speakers on the front, large or small?
 
The 780se aren't massive by any means. Their quoted frequency bottoms out at 65Hz. It really depends on where you want to set your crossover. The missions aren't particularly efficient, and at the bottom of their range probably roll off quite rapidly. Can you manually set a crossover on your amp? Doing this would negate the need to set whether they're small or large speakers. Can you set a crossover on your sub? Might be worth looking at what the amp's crossover frequency is between small and large speakers. It might be 80Hz for large and 120Hz for small, in which case I'd definitely set them to large.
 
At first it doesn't seem logical to connect both LFE phone and the speaker level inputs, but that's before you start to understand how the REL and other subs with the same feature can use both inputs at the same time and mix the signals between the two.

Before dealing with the REL, it's useful to recap on how the audio tracks for movies are composed, and then how that translates from replay a movie theater to replay in a home cinema.

Most of us know that all true 5.1 audio formats have the potential to carry 5 full range audio channels (20Hz~20kHz) and an additional low frequency effects channel (LFE). LFE is separate for a number of reasons: It's dispensable i.e. to maintain backwards compatibility with older systems and 2.0 channel for broadcast then it must be possible to play the movie without LFE. Second, the frequency range goes well below what's possible in the main channels. Dolby cites the audio range as "<120Hz", so that's 0~120Hz. Currently the first of the JJ Abrams Star Trek films has some of the lowest bass yet of any feature film - 2Hz I believe. That's 2 cone cycles per second.... bass you feel rather than hear. Thirdly, speaker drivers capable of producing very low frequencies are not so good at moving quicker for normal mid/bass reproduction.

Sound reproduction in cinemas is handled by large speakers and kilowatts of amplification all designed to fill that specific large space with sound very efficiently. By contrast, the average home cinema system isn't so powerful. So sending five full range audio channels puts quite a bit of strain on the amp. The amp runs out of power reserves at high volumes or peak level and so dynamic range suffers and distortion increases. We get around this by using bandwidth-limited speakers and redirecting some of the mid/bass frequency to the sub via the amps crossover controls on the LFE output. This means then that the typical AV receiver subwoofer output isn't pure LFE at all. It's a mix of LFE and mid/bass.

So what is it the REL does differently?

Connecting as REL suggests allows the sub to act in two modes at the same time. You set the processor to full range for the front L&R speakers. Then use the RELs high level controls (crossover, phase, volume) to blend the REL's bass output with the front speakers. The REL adds no additional load on to the receiver because of the way the input circuit is constructed. So as far as the receiver is concerned it is driving the fronts on full range to the limits of whatever frequency range they get down to. The REL adds the additional bottom end down to 20Hz where your fronts have tailed off. You blend this by ear by listening to music in 2 channel mode.

The receiver's low level out (LFE/subwoofer) goes to the sub too. This time it's the AV receiver doing most of the crossover work. Set the centre and surrounds to small and set a crossover frequency to suit.

Unlike conventional subs where you choose either the LFE input or the high level input, RELS approach gives the best of both worlds. The fronts run full range and are supplimented by the REL down to 20Hz, so you get the full benefit of mains for music without the amp having to reprocess sound. The LFE and bass below the crossover point set by the receiver is still directed as it would be for movies.
 
It won't be. The A1 was a real powerhouse of an amp. Massive analogue transformers and nowhere near as much digital background noise. It makes a superb power amp. Modern stuff just can't compete.

If you still have the A1 and the space to do it, then have a think about hooking up the 1073 pre-outs to the A1's Ext Decoder Input. Don't bother with the sub connection though. This will run the A1 like a power amp with a volume control. You'll have to work out a volume setting on the A1 and then run to speaker set-up wizard again. Try the volume dial at 16dB. It's a bit of a guesstimate but that should give around 15dB headroom. If it's way too loud at that then drop down to 20dB.
 
I would love to do this but it's getting it passed the other half lol. It's in great working order I just need to redo the dry solder joints on the display panel
 
Even if only a temporary try out on a day when the other half is out, you still have to try it. :D
 
I have a new cabinet to make when we are done decorating so could always hide it. Does the rx-a30 series not match the a1 then? The Z series are like hens teeth
 
It's difficult to make head to head comparisons because the technologies used are so different. So what I'll do is draw on some of those differences and why they're important.

Take the average high-end AV receiver. There's lots happening on the digital side of things: HDMI inputs, video conversion and scaling, image processing, multiple decoding modes etc etc. Then there's the the various AtoD and DtoA conversions, some of them for video as well as audio. Consider the power too. Are there many big amps that don't boast 150+W/ch; many are 200W+. Throw in networking, App control, Airplay, 2/3/4 rooms of multi-zone, auto room EQ, multiple channels (9.1+), assignable amps, bi-amping, and now ATMOS too and you start to see just how busy the average high-end £1500-£2000 at box of tricks is.

Now look at the prices.

The DSP-A1 launched in 1998 at around £1600. Adjusted for inflation that equates to £2550 in today's money. Yet it was just a 7.1 amp, 5x110W for the main channels + 2x 35W for the effects. No video conversion, no networking, no HDMIs, no scaling, no set-up mic, no multi-room.... hell, it didn't even have a component video through-put.

15+ years is long time in the AV industry. There's a lot of new technology coming on stream so certain things get cheaper. Markets grow for products too. That helps keep production costs down thanks to volume. But still the fundamentals don't change. Raw materials, fuel and transport costs are all higher than they were in the late 90's. Take a look at 2 channel Hi-Fi amp prices. There's a lot of common components; transformers, circuit boards, capacitors, cases etc. Something like the Rega Brio amp has been around in various iterations for almost the same span of time that we are talking about. In 2001 it would have cost £298. Adjusted for inflation that would be £450 today. Yet the latest Brio R costs £549.

So, how come is it that Yamaha (or any of the big manufacturers) can take what should be a £2500 chassis, then stuff in a shed load more tech, more features, more channels, 50% more more power and yet still sell it profitably for 20% less than its older sibling when the fundamentals all point in the opposite direction? The answer is that somewhere under the skin there's more economising done than simply derives from volume manufacture in China. That's why the amps today don't sound as good.


We know from PCs how digital switching noise plays havoc with analogue circuits. We know from the performance of Hi-Fi amps versus AV amps that wattage on the specs page doesn't translate to real life power. We can tell by listening when an amp struggles to deliver the power required for big transients. The power from a big transformer only goes so far. Sustained power delivery and the ability to cater for instantaneous demand too requires big capacitors to act as a power reservoir. The more watts being claimed then the bigger and more expensive those capacitors need to be. The wattage arms race has become self defeating. In finding new ways to deliver the Marketing Department's insatiable demand for bigger spec sheet numbers on wattage, the engineers have had to cut back on the very components that guarantee the amp's performance beyond the first millisecond of peak output. They've taken out the big V8 and replaced it with a turbo charged straight 4 cylinder that only delivers peak power at mad (and unusable) revs.
 
Set the dsp a1 up again for comparison and it just makes the rx1073 sound very dull and flat so am going to use it as a processor only.

One question is when I set up the sound with the mic does it alter the L/R sound channels with eq or does it alter the centre to match the others if that makes sense
 
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