Spec me a Keyboard!

plankermaxx

plankermaxx

plankermaxx

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Hi guys and girls,

My sis wants a keyboard to just learn how to play piano, budget is £350

I would like it to be MIDI compatible etc. for use with Cubase and drum machines etc. could you give pro's and con's if there are a few contenders? Any info appreciated on how to set it up with Cubase and other producing/MIDI apps? Such as the need of a high spec soundcard, high spec cpu, cables or if I could do majority of things on a basic pc rig?

Thanks a lot
 
What is your current spec/soundcard?

If your soundcard is poor I'd recommend something like an EMU 0404 soundcard along with a few VST instruments and a controller keyboard of some description, obviously a second hand Yamaha CS1X or CS2x synth would be my reccomendation for this but it largely depends on your current sytem specs, what speakers do you have?

Synth £100
Soundcard £60

Setting it up for use with Cubase is a doddle, midi out from the synth to midi in on the soundcard midi in on synth to out on the soundcard, audio out L/R to in L/R fart around with a few driver/latency and input settings but we can get to that when you have your stuff :)
 
It is a stock Dell soundcard and Dell 2.1 speakers (CPU P4 3Ghz). :(
I have a new HD and my PC speakers are OK so I they should do for now.

Well she has decided she wants it just for piano so I've told her to look at the Yamaha P70 and Korg SP250.

I have drums, bass and my guitar in my garage and would like to record some tracks of them and try and make some music; or else record my guitar (and bass if possible) to guitar rig into Cubase and run a drum machine with a midi controller. I have no idea if that is the right way to go about it but with christmas coming I'm thinking my best route would be to get a soundcard, synth/midi controller (whats the difference?), SM57/8 or something along those lines?


I basicly just want to record
guitar vocals and drums (real or machine) in the best way possible.

I have all the software: Cubase, guitar rig2, lots of drums, bass station, some synths and VSTs ;)
Keep in mind I'd like to get quality stuff that will last.

Thanks again :)

EDIT: I think I need MIDI cables aswell any good brands to get?
 
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Ok, RAM is also a big consideration, especially when running multiple VST Instruments, I would suggest 1Gb as an absolute minimum.

Your soundcard is almost certainly not upto the task so I would start by listing all the various ins/outs you will need, to me it sounds like the following:

midi in/out
stereo line in for synth/keyboard
mic/line in for guitar

Most decent audio cards are designed to hook up to mixer or amp/powered monitors so you may want to consider this or simply use headphones, they are also primarily designed with decent stereo recording and playback in mind rather than surround sound, you may want to consider a Firewire/USB 2 solution so you can use your Dell soundcard for gaming, personally I would ditch the 2.1 and just go for a stereo setup.

A good basic card to go for is the EMU 0404, its limitations are that it doesn't have a headphones socket or many line ins, however you could always get a cheap mixer and plug that into the soundcard to expand the number of inputs.

I recently bought a PCI EMU 1616 and it is fantastic depends on how much you want to spend I guess.

A rough guide (PCI Based):

KRK Rokit Powered 5 Powered Reference Studio Monitor (Single)£120.00

E-MU 0404 Digital Audio System £59.00

Behringer XENYX 802 £39.00

M-Audio Oxygen 61 £94.99

Total £312.99

In the above I would replace the M-Audio with a second hand synth (Yamaha CS1X) because you get much more for your money, you could ditch the mixer if you get a controller keyboard because it doesn't have it's own soundbanks and relies on VSTs.

That is probably one of the cheaper ways to do it, most Firewire cards with plenty of in/outs start at around £200. I have no experience with the mixer or midi controller or in fact the speakers in the above example. I'm really just lobbing some ideas at you :) Neoni has just bought some KRK speakers, I hadn't heard of them until he posted that. I', assuming that they are a decent brand.

I can recommend the EMU 1616 and Yamaha synth but then you are limited by the speakers you are using and to spend more on a soundcard then monitor through cheapo speakers is a bit of a waste IMO.

Gonna have to do some work now, I haven't really read through what i've suggested so there may be som glaringly obvious things I'm missing.

Oh and I've used cheapo midi cables for years without any problems!
 
Looks good Sweetloaf but wouldn't some headphones be cheaper and just as good for use as a moniter? Or would it have to go moniter then phones?

I could spend about £500 on this gear but if the korg sp250/yam P70 could be used as a MIDI controller what would you think the budget would be best spent on? I would rather get a couple of quality items that would last and work together and slowly buy more things to add to them (such as good moniter speakers, microphones, synth).

If I understand how the set up works correctly I'm thinking very good sound card or Firewire (I don't know the pro's and con's between them), good headphones and a SM57? What would the mixer be used for as I could just mix with Cubase ?

Thanks for your help I don't have much knowledge in this area :)
 
I noticed a mistake in the gear I posted, that price is for a single speaker, there are cheap monitors out there though from £70ish, probably not brilliant but they will be much better than the Dell ones you have.

plankermaxx said:
Looks good Sweetloaf but wouldn't some headphones be cheaper and just as good for use as a moniter? Or would it have to go moniter then phones?
Click to expand...

It's personal preference I suppose, speakers are better if you are playing with other people or trying to show off what you've done and are comfortable for longer :) The 0404 doesn't have a headphones socket though. Headphones are vital for recording at home, it is impossible to isolate sounds completely or monitor on speakers whilst singing or micing up an instrument, so both is ideal :) (isn't it always?)

plankermaxx said:
I could spend about £500 on this gear but if the korg sp250/yam P70 could be used as a MIDI controller what would you think the budget would be best spent on? I would rather get a couple of quality items that would last and work together and slowly buy more things to add to them (such as good moniter speakers, microphones, synth).
Click to expand...

I would build things up around a decent soundcard and synth/keyboard/controller, they should be your main focus points for now, as always I would recommend a second hand synth with midi capabilities and analogue style twiddly knobs over a more modern midi controller, If your sister is serious about learning then keep in mind that most keyboards are not full sized, especially the cheaper controllers. I don't know much about the digital pianos to be honest but I personally would by a cheaper midi input device and look into something like Steinberg's "The Grand" VST.

plankermaxx said:
If I understand how the set up works correctly I'm thinking very good sound card or Firewire (I don't know the pro's and con's between them), good headphones and a SM57? What would the mixer be used for as I could just mix with Cubase ?
Click to expand...

Yes you're right, I only threw a mixer in there because the 0404 only has one pair of stereo inputs so it would save unplugging things from the soundcard if you just plugged the mixer into the soundcard and used the mixer to effectively expand the number of inputs available to you.


plankermaxx said:
Thanks for your help I don't have much knowledge in this area :)
Click to expand...

Pleasure, gives me something to look at while I'm at work:)

Oh and my info isn't gospel, I only really know what I know from some very expensive trial and error experiments :) after 9-10 years I am close to my ideal setup:D

Here is my newest suggestion, for now I will add in a controller keyboard, as I said though, this could be replace by a good second hand synth for the same price, if you get a midi controller instead of a keyboard you don't need as many audio inputs as the souncard spec'd below but it may useful for the future.

E-MU Xboard 61 Pro USB/MIDI Controller Keyboard (comes with a very good, sound module with a full range of software based synth and natural sounds) £120

E-MU 1616 PCI Soundcard (Just got one, it's the dogs :)) £220

M-Audio BX5A Active monitors(Pair) £150

£10 left over for sweets :)
 
Yeah as Sweetloaf has mentioned, it'll cost quite a bit to get a decent size MIDI controller with a nice number of octaves. When you are learning out, it always helps because your hands can be doing different things at the other end of the keyboard.

Like you say, you are definatly better spending more and getting less to start with than buying more but getting low quality items. It'll reflect in your recordings, mark my words ;)

I have a cheap M-Audio Fast-Track USB that i was bought to help me learn about a year ago. It has one Mic input with a gain booster (not a great pre-amp), and one quarter-inch jack for Guitars, Bass, or any other line instrument which is unbalanced. Of course, recording multiple stuff is a pain because you have to keep unplugging stuff. It has a headphone output on the front which is great to have though. The main outs are unbalanced RCA's (red and white) which go to my Tapco S8's RCA's. RCA connections are always unbalanced and cannot be turned into a balanced signal. This is why most Hi-Fi's use them because they are cheap to produce and a balanced signal isn't important in this case.

One of the main benifits of having a decent mixer or soundcard is that you get balanced connections. Having a balanced connection on a 1/4 jack with a guitar coming through means that it boosts the signal so that it is at a decent recording level without having to use external pre-amps etc. It also reduces the amount of signal interference which means you don't have to worry about mr 'hum' anymore. The same applies to your outputs too. You main outs want to be balanced and this is usually reflected by them being either 1/4 jacks or more typically XLR (microphone) connections. Not only does this give you more power to your speakers, it also again reduces hum and line interferance before you hear it out of your monitors. XLR connections are completed balanced because they have a hot, cold and shield. Unbalanced connections dont have the shield and this means that you get signal noise. A balanced 1/4 jack is known as a TRS connection, and an unbalanced one is simply known as a TS. Visually, leads can be identified by either one or two black markings at the tip of the connection. Unbalanced leads have a single line, balanced ones have two.

Guitars and bass's have always been unbalanced with one marking on the leads and this is still the correct way when plugging into an amplifier because of the way they were developed. If you have a balanced 1/4 jack, try plugging it into your amp and watch the amount of humming you'll get even though it contradicts everything that a balanced connection does to reduce such circumstances. If your soundcard doesnt have a balanced 1/4 jack, you can always get a DI box which takes the unbalanced signal and turns it into a balanced one, but these are around £30 and can only be used by one instrument at a time.

Hope that hasn't confused you too much. :)
 
I think I understand what you mean OzZie
You're saying I should try and get a soundcard / mixer with bal connections so would the EMU 1616 have these?

Sorry I wasn't clear: my sisters budget is seperate from mine she just wants to learn piano on either the yamaha P70/ Korg SP250 which I told her are the best ones for her budget. Where as my £500 would be just for my little recording project.
I was thinking as I would be able to use her keyboard for MIDI controlling wouldn't it be as good as the Xboard 61 Pro and then I could get a quality controller in the future?

When you say 'analogue style twiddly knobs' what would these be used for? Couldn't I just change the VST or MIDI settings on the DAW rather than need these?

Could you respec if that makes any difference? Also are there any good sites where I can read and learn about all this equipment and the setting up of it?
Cheers guys
 
The 1616 has:

Two E-MU XTC™ Ultra-low Noise Mic/Line/Hi-Z Preamps with Soft Limiter and 48V Phantom Power (-129dBu EIN)
Four 1/4" Balanced Inputs
Six 1/4" Balanced Outputs
Turntable Input (w/ground lug and hardware RIAA preamp)
24-bit/192kHz ADAT In/Out (switchable to S/PDIF)
24-bit/192kHz coaxial S/PDIF Out (switchable to AES/EBU)
Two sets of MIDI In/Out
stereo 1/8" Speaker Outputs (configurable from stereo to 5.1)
Stereo Headphone Output

So yes :) they are actually switchable between balanced and unbalanced iirc.

The twiddly knobs are for controlling you soft synths and are as you say you can do it by mouse but it doesn't quite feel the same, again it's personal preference and if your sister is dead set on those elec pianos then I would agree that you may want to hold of on buying one for now.

For a respec just remove the controller synth :)

Oh and upgrade the monitors if you feel you want to.
 
Yeah, the soundcard Sweetloaf spec'd has the balanced in's and out's as highlighted, so all is good. It's really only the cheaper stuff that has unbalanced connections, but sometimes you get the odd piece of hardware that will have eight 1/4 jacks but only say 2 are balanced, and the rest aren't.

The 1616 sounds like a great soundcard based on the specs. May have a look of this as a potential upgrade myself. :)
 
OzZie said:
The 1616 sounds like a great soundcard based on the specs. May have a look of this as a potential upgrade myself. :)
Click to expand...

It's brilliant, it's also a DSP card so you can layer a few extra effects and take a bit of pressure off the CPU, the effects are actually pretty decent and include things like speaker simulations, vocoder stuff, compression etc etc.

I will admit that it nearly got hurled out of the window due to the Patchmix software mixer that you need to use to route the ins and outs but once it clicks it's actually a damn handy extra :)

I couldn't find a card that even came close to it as far as functionality goes for the price, the only thing to keep in mind is that with it being PCI based it isn't as portable as say the M-Audio 1814 and PCI-Express may be the standard in a few years time but to be honest I can't see PCI vanishing anytime soon.
 
Hey again well this is what I've came up with now

EMU 1616 PCI - £219
SM57 - £66 Mic'd to a Laney VC30 112
SM58 - £69
Cables - £20ish not sure which ones to buy from GAK could you guys spec some? - £26 delivery

Total - £400

Unsure on the mics but I heard these are the standards.
I'd be using the Korg SP250 as the midi controller for mainly drums, bass, piano and synths. Would plan to get KRK RP8's (or similar) next summer with a proper keyboard(if needed). Would this spec work well together for my solo recordings (by that I mean recording one track at a time). Working with Cubase SX3 on XP?

TIA :)
 
SM58's are the de facto standard for vocals and the SM57's for general recordings (bass, guitar etc). However, they can be mixed and matched together to get the best sound. Can't go wrong with either.

With that soundcard, you'll be able to have multiple tracks recording at once (for example, both mic's on the VC30) and then have a mix to get a good sound. This way you can A/B them and apply any tweaks to get it to sound really nice (for example eq'ing them). At £230, it aint a cheap soundcard. You've paid the money, make the most of it. :)

On the MIDI controllers, get a decent sized one with weighted keys because they are often just not practical for doing piano music. I personally am using a traditional electronic keyboard with 6 octaves and it sometimes feels too small. Then again, having something small like Neon recently bought makes a lot of sense because they are so easy to use and take up no space what so ever, and have all the extra gadgets for messing around with the sounds in real time (pitch sliders etc). I would wait if you know that a decent sized one is probabily what you are after in the long run.

Apart from that, it all seems good to go with Cubase, Reason or any other digital workstation.
 
Good stuff cheers OzZie :)
£ -> € is good at the moment aswell so gotta order soon :p

EDIT: My sis wants a proper digital piano shes decided on the Korg SP250 which is 88keys and is midi compatible so I will use that until I can afford something with a lot of knobs and sliders

Would the cabling brand matter? Mics would need XLR -> XLR right? and MIDI in / out would just be a standard MIDI cable?

My mobo has spare PCI slot but would it definatley work with the Dell mobo I have in it? And could would I replace the current sound card with it and plug my dell speakers into the EMU 1616?
Never ending questions... lol
 
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Can i ask what you will be using to monitor? Are you using some old speakers or do you already have some monitors, or are you planning on using headphones?

Bit of a silly question, but the amount of people that use the worst Hi-Fi speakers 'just to start out with' is quite astonishing. :p

Edit: Yes, if you are already using an external soundcard (such as an X-Fi or Audigy) then i would remove it and install the Emu card in its place. Providing the connections are correct, then you can plug pretty much anything as an output. Dell speakers should work ok, but i can't say that they'll sound great.

If they EMU card has MIDI In's, then you will need a standard MIDI cable to connect it, unless it is a USB one in which case you may need a MIDI USB adapter, although im sure they will provide you with these leads. I'm not totally sure as i havent bought a MIDI controller before.
 
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Yea but I will be learning from scratch so I wont recieve the stuff for about 2 weeks and wont be familiar with it until probaly January so only about 6 months of using the crappy dell speakers or would you HIGHLY recommend some headphones as I cannot afford good moniters and have no decent headphones anyway so could have a use for them?
 
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