Specific advice (Enthoo in room corner, air vs AIO options for silence/OC)

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Hello, brave ladies & beautiful gents (or was that the other way round?). Would you mind kindly please advising me in the following situation:

The purpose is complete silence for work and surfing, always drowned out by loudspeakers for gaming. As close as possible to zero ticking, clicking, vibration, etc.

I would like to overclock, but within practical limits, as in not to the extent where it costs less to just buy a faster CPU/GPU (which I also see as a viable option if it ends up running quieter).

The case is Phanteks Enthoo Pro.

All drive cages removed, so now it's just the walls.

Fan/rad slots/clearances:

front: 2x140 or 2x120 (or 1x200, even 230), mesh + filter
rear: 1x140 or 1x120, mesh only
top: 1x200 or 3x140 or 3x120, mesh + filter, 65mm rad clearance to mobo
bottom: 2x120 or 1x140+1x120, mesh + filter

CPU cooler: 193 mm.

Note: Rad in front disables first bottom slot. Rad in bottom disables first front slot.

Note: Front is bad at resisting vibration, and amplifies sound pressure.


Current case position:

Under the desk in the very corner of the room.

Rear about 10 cm clearance to the wall.

Top about 20 cm vertical clearance to desk.

Front intakes 100 cm from human ear.

CPU 150 cm from human ear.

Options to move: not many, inconvenient due to cables and exposing the rear to feline curiosity.

Alternatives: bare frame atop a bookshelf (outside Effective Feline Reach™):

(a) 180cm+ away from ear, L90xW43xH43 (cm) available;
(b) 300-ish away, H19cm only.

(c) P500A? (No 280+140 option, though, but top 360 plus front 360 would work.)


Current fans:

front: 1x230 (CoolerMaster something or other)
top: 1x230 (as above)
bottom: 2x120 (Gelid fans originally from the Gelid Phantom cooler)
rear: 1x140 (Phanteks that came with the case)


Current PC config:

CPU: i5-9600KF

Coolers: Thermalright Ultra 120 or Gelid Phantom (not as good as it looks; possibly to do with pipe soldering), in either case 2xBQ Silent Wings 140mm 3 PWM hispeed

Paste: Kryonaut

Mobo: Gigabyte Aorus Z390 Pro, currently in repairs; Asus Strixx Z370-H (low-end) — both full ATX, first slot is non-GPU short PCIE

Storage: 2xM.2 with heatsinks

GPU: Colorful iGame GTX 1070 Ti Vulcan U-TOP (2x8pin, takes TDP increase well)



What I'm thinking about is:


If AIO for CPU:

a. 140 top exhaust fan (top-rear) + 280 top exhaust CPU AIO (top-front); vs
b. 360 top exhaust CPU AIO (near the rear or near the front, so it's straight above intake fans?)

If Kraken G12+AIO for GPU (worryingly expensive for 1070ti):

i. 280 front intake GPU AIO with 1x140 bottom intake fan vs
ii. 240 bottom intake GPU AIO with 1x140 front intake fan

or:

c. invert the rads — CPU front (280), GPU top (280 AIO + 140 top exhaust fan or just 360 AIO)?

If air for CPU:

1. Should I rotate the cooler 90 degrees, considering how the top allows more/larger fans and more space after?

2. What's best for my situation, also considering the height can be up to 193mm and the first slot on the mobo is not GPU?

No bang-for-the-buck optimizing. Just the bang. One dbA less is worth fifty quid more. (One or two degrees for the same SPL isn't really.) I'd err on the side of overinvestment and unused headroom. Better waste some money than cut any corners and suffer potential drawbacks.

I've considered buying the heatsink and the fans separately, to start with P14 and upgrade to 2xNF-A14x25 upon release.

And then there's the option to use 38mm fans, though I'm not familiar with any that would be quiet.

If air for GPU:

a. Accelero Xtreme III with normal heatsinks, later swap the fans if needed vs
b. Accelero Xtreme IV with backplate, later swap the fans if needed vs
c. Morpheus + 2xP12 (or NF-A12x25? Or NB-PS?) vs
d. just swap the fans (which fans to choose; VGA converter vs molex)?

===========

To save you some time (or not, perhaps, as the case may be):

I've seen the tests in which Le Grand Macho RT ('LGMRT') or True Spirit Power 140 ('TSP') or Ninja 5 or Fuma 2 or even sometimes Dark Rock Pro 4 ('DRP4') beat NH-D15 ('D15') on both performance and silence, but I've also seen tests in which they are beaten by it, especially given high OCs, high loads, high TDPs. The same goes for U14S.

And I've seen tests in which AC Liquid Freezer II 280 or 360 (even 240 sometimes) beats D15, and by far, but also tests in which it doesn't, and again by far. What I worry about is tests showing the Freezer unable to go below 37 dbA in the same circumstances in which a dozen top air coolers were able to stay below 30 dbA with PWM, which is a game-ender for me in favour of air, unless the LF can catch up with the low SPL by giving up some degrees. But words such as 'pump' or '40mm' normally make me cringe in pain. Yes, well, I have exceptional-rated hearing and some neurological problems. (Life's a pain when the neighbours are having a party or the city is doing some roadworks… I spend much of my life in earplugs, which I hate.)

Next, I've seen tests with Dark Rock Pro (perhaps 3 but can't recall) beating D14 (IIRC it was 14 and not 15) in passive tests, suggesting a better heatsink. However, I've seen plenty of tests with D15 getting lower thermals at the same SPL and lower SPL at the same thermals, showing perhaps that DRP's only advantage over D15 may well just be its default curve and nothing else (not that the curve isn't amazing).

And I've seen Genesis with results outclassing everything else, if provided with some really good fans, though those were old tests.

From what I've heard A15 aren't spectacular, and P14 are better on D15. Perhaps D15S with 2xP14 could be a good solution then, relegating the NF-A15 to a non-critical case-fan slot? I could later upgrade to NF-A14x25 when those came out. However, one could also wait for D16 or whatever the upgraded D15 based on the 14 cm version of NF-A12x25 is going to be called — though that can be far away and may well be designed by GRR Martin.

I've heard about NH-U12A, and sure, it's a marvellous piece of technology, and its prices have finally began to fall down, but U14A would be even better. Besides, it doesn't really manage to catch up with D15.

Dark Rock non-Pro has caught my attention due to how it can often steal 2dbA from the Pro while performing similarly on lower TDPs, but I don't really trust it with 5 GHz OCs and the like, though I may, of course, be mistaken (and it's really hard to beat the acoustics of a single non-HS SW3 fan).

The problem: I don't have the theoretical knowledge or practical experience to know what to make of all those tests and decide what's likely going to be the best for me.

So far I've decided to cut the 'bang for the buck' out of the equation, so as to simplify and accelarate the process a bit. This is why I'm not looking at old stuff such as D14 or Dark Rock Pro 2 or 3 and not really looking much at Fuma 2, of which the selling proposition seems to be near-D15 performance at 50% less cost, in which case I'd be going for D15 anyway.

In terms of prices, I can get a TSP for much, much less (at least 25%) than LGMRT, I can get a Ninja 5 at an attractive price (below TSP's), Fuma 2 is slowly catching up with D15, and I can get a very good deal on a D15, with D15S costing just a bit less (on par with LGMRT), which then inspires the idea of getting D15, replacing the fans with P14 and putting the A15s in non-critical case slots. And also a very good price — on par with D15S for AC Liquid Freezer 280 (360 would cost one third more).

So what would you suggest?

If you want to hear more about my existing heatsinks, I think the Ultra 120 with 2xSW3 is more than sufficient to keep my CPU cool while being silent without OC, but with OC the TDP is going to become a problem. With the Gelid Phantom things are similar. Theoretically, you get 7 heatpipes and a design similar to Grandis or Fuma 2 (each tower about as thick as the fan) and copper base. In practice, it doesn't perform as well as it looks, its fans are loud (haven't tested with SW3 yet), and there's a suspicion (not mine), that the the quality of pipe soldering is responsible for the disappointment — although this thing was still hailed as the king of budget cooling at some point. You could buy two Phantoms for one TSP. I will be testing it with the SW3 soon. Still, I want a better cooler unless I limit myself to Kingdom Come: Deliverance (which doesn't respond well to OC), Crusader Kings 2, Tropico 5 and NWN modules this year, which may well be the case, unless I jump at Cyberpunk or Dirt 5 (in the latter case, before even playing Dirt 4, which I already have, which I will probably then try to play first).

More likely than not, I'll just be playing some old game when not working, but I think I've caught upgradeyitis or tinker fever. Chances are I won't rest till I buy some. If I can't choose a new cooler, I'll probably have to replace the case fans, but that's going to be a wasted expense if I then move on to AIO and lose the slots.

If I were to put off the major upgrade and just get something more reasonable in the meantime, then used D14 and Phanteks C14 heatsinks are cheap where I live, as are Macho Rev. B heatsinks, all sometimes with fans at a slightly higher price. Those fans could be useful on the case, while putting my SW3 HS 140s on the heatsink. Just don't know which cooler has the best heatsink — any ideas?

Oh, and more idea: I guess I could try push-pull on a front AIO, due to already losing the first bottom slot. That would be a four-fan 280 rad, for example. Just about the length of the lazy daisy Arctic suggests. Not sure this could be done on the top rad after removing the case's top cover, but I could also try. So perhaps at least 140mm fans wouldn't be wasted if sticking with 280mm rads, though not 360 then. What do you think?

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Monsterlabo

Thank you! Lovely stuff indeed. Not my league financially right now, though something to look forward to if things improve at work.

Let's say I'm not a complete silence freak — the most civilized stock GPU coolers are generally tolerable (and in any case they would be with a quiet 2x120mm fan mod), and I can also live with audible but quiet fans on the CPU when I'm not doing some writing work at night, which requires concentration and tends to coincide with Windows' system maintence, virus scans, Windows/application updates and such like. As long as the fans waking up don't make a huge starting sound but only start to whisper softly compared to the previous total silence, I'm pretty okay with it. After all, I grew up with computers when silence was not really a thing. So perhaps I'm making myself sound like more of a princess than I really feel about this.

So if I could give you some context, this is more like Arctic Freezer 280 vs 360 vs NH-D15 vs Le Grand Macho vs True Spirit Power vs Ninja 5 (or Mugen 5 or Fuma 2) for CPU, and Accelero vs Morpheus vs Kraken G12 + Arctic Freezer vs just fan swap for PCU, and Arctic P14 vs something else for case fans (pulling or pushing through mesh + filter), choosing from normal commercial ranges.

My main problem right now is being stuck between AIO and air, which means I can't really buy a bunch of case fans and 2 or 3 CPU fans right now only to decide I'm switching to AIO next week.

For GPU, I could just get Accelero III and call it a day, but at some 70% extra cost I could get a G12 + Freezer 280 for some total overkill cooling.

At this point, where I live Liquid Freezer 280 is actually cheaper than D15, D15s and Le Grand Macho RT, unlike the old situation with AIOs being more powerful but also more expensive — so there's a budget reason to consider the Freezer. But I'm worried about the pump and the 40mm VRM fan. I know they're supposed to be quiet, but to what extent can one actually make an AIO pump or 40mm fan quiet… And then there's the 2-year warranty and worries about life expectancy.

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Hey again, Chris.

Yes, I had initially written AIOs off, back when their main premise was superior cooling and superior acoustics in exchange for a higher price point, but everybody knew and tests showed the silence was just not there, especially compared to 'air kings'. There were perhaps one or two pricy offerings that could actually go as quiet as a decent air cooler.

Now, however, Arctic's newest Freezers have got me thinking, especially after seeing some tests. I saw even the 240 version end up with a lower curve on the graphs than D15, Ninja 5 and Le Grand Macho RT, then there were some tests of the 280 version and even the first tests of the 360, generally showing Arctic's AIO to be superior in both performance and noise to 'air kings'… while even actually costing less.

Those tests, however, were conducted under extreme loads on highly overclocked systems and in the >30 dBA range. So there's clearly much superiority in performance-to-noise ratios in barely audible ranges, but what I worry about is how fast the Freezers can get to the 'already audible' range, while perhaps 'air kings' could be persuaded — for example with a more silence-friendly and temperature-forgiving curve — to actually remain inaudible (while perhaps not giving as much OC headroom).

The above is, unfortunately, a lot of theorizing and speculation, since the only CPU coolers I've used lately are Thermalright Ultra from 2006 and Gelid Phantom, the alleged budget king (IMHO a failed contender vs Grandis). I can only rely on specs, tests and whatever experience people share. This is why I'm not making much progress. Not being a PC builder, not working in a hardware company, etc., I don't get to test my ideas. Worse still, I'm technically not a consumer due to being a registered sole trader and this being a PC I'm going to do my work on, so no 14-day returns unless businesses are also allowed the courtesy. So if something doesn't work, I'm down to reselling it and paying tax on it and all, but most of all the hassle and some minor risk of fraudulent returns.

So, what I worry about is making a mistake about the Arctic AIO if the pump (and the 40mm VRM fan) fail to be quieter than the ambient in non-gaming applications — low to middle loads that don't coincide with music and other sounds coming from the speakers, especially at night, when there's less noise coming from the outside (typical housing area full of apartment houses with a bunch of ).

As for 'air kings' and making a single pick among them — worse still, getting the choice right the first time — their relative advantages are difficult for me put together a big picture of and figure out the principle behind the differing scores in the various uses, where now the one leads, now the other, by a small margin, and the crown changes hands often, but comparisons suggest there's more to it than essential interchangeability — in some cases there do seem to be clear patterns.

So I try to at least remove the prices from the equation and avoid taking risks trying to get e.g. 95% of D15 performance at 60% of the price — instead, just 100% of both, provided the performance, both thermal and acoustic, really is superior. Overpaying is fine, compared to cutting corners and taking risks, especially replacing anything (at which point any savings generally disappear).

I speak about D15 like it is some sort of default reference because that's what it is, but like I said, I'm tempted by Le Grand Macho RT, True Spirit Power and the Dark Rock series, as they can get lower noise for similar temps in some situations. And now, of course, also the Arctic AIOSs at 280 and 360.

For GPU cooling, the tests I've seen tend to show that the Morpheus provides marginally superior GPU cooling at the expense of VRM and VRAM cooling, where the loss is greater than the gain on CPU (like one degree better on GPU, five worse on VRM/VRAM), but I can't know to what extent fans or curve settings could make a difference. The Morpheus does look like a more solid structure than the Accelero.

I've heard people say Accelero 3 is quiet enough with its 3x92mm fans to not need a fan swap (and reportedly someone got worse results), however, so it might not even need a fan swap. That would be a nice budget option.

On the other hand, just replacing the fans with 2xP12 PWM PST on the factory heatsink could be even cheaper.

So I'm in a stalemate. Can't even really do much of a temporary solution, due to whatever I buy potentially becoming redundant later depending on what I choose in the end.

I could start from buying 2xP14 PWM PST, as I would still need exactly 2 of those with AIOs and obviously more of them with air, so in any case it's more likely than not I'll need at least 2 of them.

Ironically, fans, even budget Arctics, make it so that the AIO seems to take the bang-for-the-buck lead. It has its own costs, but while 360+280+G12 mount would cost €240-ish (roughly 110, 90, 40 respectively), a D15 also costs 90, Morpheus costs 70-ish + 20 for 2 Arctic fans, and at least 10 per fan for the P14s. I'm not in the UK, so euros here, but the proportion is probably going to be the same anyway — meaning almost equal costs between AIOs and air.

A more budget-friendly option would be to keep my existing fans, only replacing the noisy bottom intakes, and perhaps getting a more powerful CPU heatsink while keeping the Silent Wings 3 hispeeds, and perhaps doing a fan swap on the GPU.

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Well, Noctua's line-up suggests the 14 cm version of NF-A12x25 could appear in the first half of 2021, along with D15's successor, preceded by a new passive cooler (on which I suppose there's going to be a way of mounting some fans). I could certainly wait until then as opposed to buying a pack of Arctic P14s right now.

My current setup (as at this writing, as opposed to the long-term current, which includes bottom intakes) is 230mm front intake and 140+230 rear exhaust, netting me with a negative setup, plus 2x140mm Silent Wings 3 hi-speed on the Ultra (w/ Kryonaut).

Since I haven't disabled C-states, much of the time the CPU is in 800 MHz mode, and the case fans are actually off, with the Silent Wings idling at 250 rpm each. At that point the PC is pretty much a dead brick, and it takes a bit more airflow for air currents to be audible. At around 600 rpm CPU and 450 rpm case fans I don't think I can hear a difference. Perhaps by focusing hard I could train myself to spot it, but right now I have to check the fan meters. Things get more complicated with higher rpms because even with silent bearings the currents could become audible.

Incidentally, this makes me think about water cooling — rads mounted on the case, CPU as top exhaust, ejecting the air directly outside the case, GPU perhaps as front intake, but that would be high-performing 280 and much of it would probably go up and away via the CPU rad as top exhaust. And there would be bottom intakes shooting unobstructed columns straight to that top exhaust (into the rad and out of the case) in the front case area before the mobo even starts. Essentially, the AIOS would sit in their own separate section at the front, with better airflow than the rear of the case. At the rear, however, with that sort of setup, I'd probably need to make some tweaks to VRM cooling (such as aftermarket heatsinks, perhaps with some ribs on which to put a fan, or additional blocks if going with a modular AIO).

Actually, VRM cooling is one more thing that makes me reluctant to cross over into the AIO camp, since all your CPU OC is worth little if the VRMs can't catch up, which matters even more if you're an amateur like me and your case is in a relatively poor spot for airflow.

Anyway, I think I'm becoming repetitive.

On a different note, Chris, what would you think about the bare-frame/open-case scenario? In a scenario without many case fans, I tend to have better temps with case wings removed even under the desk, so perhaps putting the PC on top of a bookshelf or wardrobe on just a metal frame should help dissipation, though there wouldn't be much static pressure in room air for emergencies. That could be helped by putting 20cm fans around the PC, I suppose, though that would ramp up the cost to probably impractical levels. Or just a manually controlled room/table fan for gaming sessions. It would be easier to find and test a quiet 40-ish desk fan compared to the hassle of PC fans. It would have its own firm stand and could be further put on a vibration-dampening mat, like the one my current PC case stands on (same as used for gym equipment and often for washing machines). The added benefit would be more legroom for me — a 195 cm tall guy with a 120x80 desk pressed into the corner of the room. I would go through the hassle of the installation and the cost of the equipment if there was some gain to be found, but otherwise I'd keep wardrobe tops for storage (too many books and other stuff).

Edit: And hmm… undervolting might perhaps not be what I would do for gaming (though it's great for avoiding steady rise over time leading to timeouts and artifacts from overheating), but for work it could be great in avoiding fan spikes from file copying/application updates/virus scans. The system takes care of the overclocking via C-states — just leaving them on probably does the job for me well enough when working, as opposed to gaming.

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

This lead me to believe you had 2 x 120mm fans in the bottom of your case. Aside from the GPU (and maybe the CPU cooler), I'd expect these to be noisiest and prime candidates for upgrade.

Oooh, I see! Well, like I think I wrote above, I turned them off without removing them from the case. They are definite candidates for upgrading, though there will be a decision to make depending on whether I use a front or bottom radiator or not. Bottom rad would mean 14+12 or just 14 or just 20 for front, while front rad would mean only 14 for bottom.

Check these out - available today - NF-A14
Slightly cheaper, and also more attractive in my opinion - NF-A14

I'd probably be splurging out on NF-A12x25 in order to 'max out and forget' or hitting the sweet spot with the Arctics, P12+14. But then Noctua's going to release the 14 cm version of NF-A12x25, and that would be best for 'maxing out'.

Nice. Agree about the movement of air making noise. This is reduced if you remove impedance, which brings me to another point you make:

I now no longer have impedance in the case itself — no drives, no racks, no nothing — but there's the mesh and the dust filter, yes. I could remove the mesh while keeping the filters, I think — this should still prevent curious felines from injuring themselves.

This is indeed a very good solution. It has two major drawbacks:
1. You will get a lot of dust in the system; this really means a clean-out with compressed air every six months to a year (pet ownership moves this to the more frequent end of the spectrum)

Last time I tried compressed air, liquid came out… lol. But yeah, well, I'll have to learn how to use that, eventually. Also don't vacuuming every two weeks or so.

2. A cat may break your PC, and/or part of the cat

Yeah. I have a bookshelf/wardrobe cats can't get on top of. That's where I'd keep an open case.

This isn't required. The fans on the heatsinks move fresher air at a greater rate outside a case than inside a case - you will get better temps in an open case or on a bench than in a case. No extra fans are needed (or even helpful) other than those on the heatsinks.

That's beginning to sound good…

I don't think that in your setup you would see a great deal of issue with VRM temps moving to AIOs. I do think they'd be noisier (noticeably) than your current setup.

One of my mobos is an Asus Strixx Z370-H, which by default has a vdroop setting that drops the voltage or even throttles the processor (though not much is actually shown in e.g. HWMonitor or HWinfo other than a change in watt output — slight voltage change and no frequency change) once either the VRM temp gets to 75 or the wattage gets to 125. And that's essentially cancelling even a moderate overclock. I still have my Z390 Aorus Pro, though it needs a socket repair (broke a pin again), so that's going to have to wait.

As for AIO noise, yeah, well, I've seen the Arctics beat Noctua, Le Grand Macho and the other 'air kings', but that was in the 30+ dbA range, I'd rather not enter unless there's some heavy-duty gaming going on. Above-30 idle noise ain't good.

//Edit: Custom loop cooling can deliver fantastic cooling at very (but still audible) noise levels, as an aside. It is also very expensive, time consuming and an order of magnitude more complex and risky than AIOs.

Used to be my goal and something to look forward to in life, but then I decided it was probably not realistic. A similar effect could probably be achieved by spending half the cash on getting more powerful components, perhaps OP for the expected tasks, perhaps undervolted, perhaps even downlocked, with some sort of low-rpm coolers on them.

Some folks suggested reducing my cooling budget and simply replacing the processor/platform faster, and certainly that makes sense.

Replacing the platform could allow me to get a smaller mobo form factor for a smaller open case.

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

The 140mm Noctuas are available - that's what I linked you to

Yes, but that's the older generation — NF-A14 and NF-A15 belong in the same generation that's one generation behind the NF-A12x25.

This is why Noctua's roadmap mentions 'next-generation 14cm fan' for 2021 (first half, from what I hear), which is supposed to be based on the NF-A12x25 design.

If you take a closer look, NF-A14 looks like the classic high-end fan, while the 'next-gen' design of the NF-A12x25 sports a larger motor, more and curvier blades with some funky ribbing on them.

I know the 'next gen' may take more than just a couple of months to release and be quite expensive when it does — probably 50% more than the existing A14 — but I'm willing to eat the cost if there is much to be gained. 'Max out and forget'.

But there are two problems with this:

1. Three, or even two, of those fans cost as much as a minimalistic test bench, in which I would not need any fans other than on a heatsink.

2. Three of them cost more than Arctic Liquid Freezer II 280 and almost as much as a 360.

As a result, the AIO option could turn out less expensive than the total bill for aggressive Noctuatherapy.

So this keeps me wondering if I could perhaps separate the pump from the fans for PWM control and try to tune each to my ideal subjective levels. For example light pump duty and moderate-to-heavy fan duty (max inaudible rpm for both).

AC LF II 280 + G12 for GPU will cost a bit more than a half of the card's worth, but non-used Morpheus with two non-used Noctua fans also would actually cost even a bit more.

And, of course, open-air test bench would probably mean no AIOs. No AIOs, no fans, just CPU cooler and GPU cooler and PSU fan. Possibly the cheapest solution.

Argh. Decisions, decisions. Gotta choose but can't.

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Thank you. Yes, it might be a good idea to give up on AIOs and perhaps someday just build a custom loop when I'm ready to and don't have more pressing uses for the money.

Hmm… Corsair 570X is outside of my budget, but Silverstone RL06 at 1000 rpm was still only beaten by itself at 1500 rpm (and only narrowly), and that's an affordable case. One third of the Corsair's price, and cheaper than the open bench. What I don't like is only 12cm rear, while top can do 2x140 and front can do 2x140 or 3x120. No bottom. And CPU cooler clearance only 15.8cm, meaning my 42mm RAM wouldn't fit even with a 12cm fan, leaving me with something asymmetrical like D15S or Le Grand Macho.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure my Phanteks Enthoo Pro really isn't a bad case for flow (not the best but certainly not the worst), though obviously it was designed with a robust drive section in the front in mind, whereas for me a vertical bottom-top column in the front section would not be ideal, unless there was a rad under the top, but otherwise it would be just uselessly venting the empty front of the case.

Sigh. Running in circles again. A new traditional case would be a useless purchase if I were to be switching over to a bare frame (current candidate) some time later.

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Thanks. I've also once again checked out some Arctic Freezer reviews and perhaps found out what the deal is with the low dbAs. In one of those reviews (should have saved a link but forgot) you had to almost read the test section word-for-word to find the information that the pump stayed at 29 dbA through most of the tests — tests in which it was credited with 26, 27 and otherwise low values. While 29 isn't the end of the world, it obviously isn't as near-silent as air coolers can be. Omitting the pump and just measuring the fan dbA could be where some AIOs get those astonishingly good acoustic results that are hard to believe.

Also, at 29 dbA the pump was doing almost 3000 rpm and I'm skeptical about that sort of rpm managing to keep a low profile. If not pure loudness, then vibrations or whatever, but 3000 rpm would tend to produce some sort of pulsating sensation of the kind you perceive from GPUs even when they aren't being loud. It may be quiet, but you can tell when your GPU's fans are doing heavy 2000-ish duty. So the 3000 on the pump… ehhh.

Not ruling the Arctic out, especially as it costs less than air cooling + case fans while providing better thermals, but I would probably not want it under my desk, unless I either disentangled the pump from the overall PWM header or put the PC farther away from me. Interestingly, the test bench I would be buying, which is a vertical bare frame, has either 2x120 or 2x140 holes at the front, or in any case a bunch of acrylic in which more holes could be made.

One other idea that has just struck me is that perhaps some sort of sound insulation could be made for the pump. I'm not sure to what extent plastering the block with acoustic insulation could be effective, though it surely would be ugly.

Seems I have more thinking to do — I wouldn't mind a barely audible pump managing by PC at a point where air coolers tend to get very loud or fail, provided I could also come up with a way of reducing the pump's acoustic impact. Obviously, increasing rpms on the fans to 1000 and above would not be that, as at that point the fans could become (very) audible (to my ear, which can generally pick out 'silent' fans at 600-ish rpms as case fans if I concentrate). 'Air kings' run hotter, have lower limits and cost more in combination with case fans, but without the pump you do get better acoustics.

Going through Freezer II tests, I also found out something interesting about Noctua's D15 — it seems to provide better cooling for VRMs/mosfets than most other coolers, including ones that look similar in construction.

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

I wish they made something like hybrid air/AIO. I suppose current heatsinks are already technically hybrids due to heatpipes having liquid in them, even without pumps, but I'm thinking more about using a traditional heatsink in tandem with a pump and rad. I suppose this should help AIOs's problematic sound levels under idle and low to mid loads, before the high-load stage when AIOs outpace air coolers in performance-to-noise ratios. So for example something like Le Grand Macho RT or Ninja 5 that doesn't need more than 300 rpm until things get quite rough, at which point there would still be no need to start the pump, though it could be started (with inaudibly low rpms) just to warm it up and keep it ready, then gradually increasing the pump duty in some sort of smart way based on recognizing the necessity or expediency. By recognizing expediency I mean realizing that well, the pump's gonna be audible, yes, but less loud than the 1500 rpm that would otherwise be necessary on the heatsink fan on the CPU.

The D15 has an oversized fan that goes beyond the profile of the heatsink, which is probably why is does a great job of VRM cooling. It really is a very, very well designed cooler - and also an expensive one.

Yeah, though it doesn't cost much more than Le Grand Macho RT or Dark Rock Pro 4 from where I would be ordering. I might even get D15S cheaper than LGMRT or DPRP4. Liquid Freezer 280 is about the same price. Ninja 5 is somewhat less. True Spirit Power is much less.

I'm actually considering insulating my pump to quiet it further. I have a D5, which dumps the heat into the water. If I had a DDC pump that was air cooled then insulating it would kill the pump; don't know how AIO pumps work but be mindful of that possibility. Even if you insulate the direct noise, with an AIO the pump is bolted to the motherboard and so you can't eliminate vibration; might not be such an issue with your case.

Good luck! Do let me know about the results.

You could go with the frame, a D15 and reuse your silent wings as case fans. How does that compare to an AIO in cost?

The frame's like ninety quid, same as a D15, which is then halfway between LF 280 and 360. With no mesh or filter, my SWs would probably rock the boat and manage to stay quiet, though there is the possibility that the case is insulating some of their motor/bearing sounds — with an open frame only distance would be insulating those. Speaking of much distance and little to no resistance, though, I wonder if that wouldn't allow LF 280/360 to actually stay quiet — 150 cm from the ear. Say, 800–1100 rpm on the fans, pump surve reduced to only taking on audible levels under large loads. Although I'd still of course have more trust in a D15, LGMRT or DRP4 when it came to being able to remain inaudible into the lower range of high loads.

Does the open frame you have under consideration have a remote power button to save reaching up all the time? Do you use external media often, and if so do you have a router with USB or some other solution to easily use it when the PC is outside of comfortable reach?

I'd be okay, though I'd probably have to splurge on an external power button on a cord for family's sake. A bunch of longer cables or extensions would be needed for peripherals. Nothing too impractical or bank-breaking.

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Let me start off with saying your CPU/GPU are not the most power hungry and shouldn't require exotic cases or coolers to stay cool and quiet.

Yeah, I know. However, I like to OC a bit, and I also happen to have some sort of exaggerated sensitivity to sound (especially vibrations and coarse bearing/motor sounds but also pure decibels) coupled with above-average hearing.

There is much text, hard to see what is actually wrong with the current setup?
Too loud or too hot or both?

Sorry for the text wall.

Cool and silent for work and light gaming.

Too loud/too hot/both when OC'd for heavy gaming.

Choice overload with upgrade paths. And I'm bad at physics, so no imagination to extrapolate expectations of real-life behaviour from tests, reviews, etc.

Can you adjust fans, so that in light surfing mode nothing spins faster than 700-800 rpm? Well, 400-500 for those huge 230mm ones. Or whatever is acceptable as almost silent.
What is the loudest or hottest component then?

Yup. The problem: When I set the fans to individually inaudible rpms, the flow through the case is going to be audible, along with echo. Echoes through the case will also amplify vibrations, motor/bearing sounds and everything else.

Hence I could do the obvious thing: D15/Macho RT for CPU, Morpheus + 2xNF-A12x25 for GPU, a bunch of P14s for case intakes (mesh+filter, hence pressure-optimized) and either P14s or NB Eloops for exhausts (I hear they whine as pullers but push all right) and then just play with curves. This option is on the table.

But, the alternatives are:

1. Liquid Freezers for CPU and GPU:

Pro: Easily drowned out by game music/ambient when OC'd, perhaps near-silent under heavy loads.
Con: A challenge to keep actually silent under lower loads.

Note: Fewer case fans to buy.

2. Retire the case, put the PC on a bare frame somewhere on top of furniture (outside cats' reach).

Pro: No echoes. Easier dissipation. More distance from ear. Fewer motors/bearings. More legroom under the desk.

Con: Could be overestimating the benefits. Airflow could still be poor with e.g. some boxes on top of the furniture in addition to the PC, as opposed to an unobstructed horizontal line (or with the PC on a dedicated shelf on a wall). A vertical open frame could wobble. Mobo lying flat down on an acrylic plate could have poorer flow.

Note: Again no case fans, AIOs could be a pain, so probably air.

Problems:

1. Buying a bunch of high-quality case fans (2x140 front intake, 140+120 bottom intake, 2x140 top exhaust, 1x140 rear exhaust) and AIOs/open frame are mutually exclusive, so gotta choose.
2. Open frame doesn't go too well with AIOs, I think.
3. High-quality air coolers + high-quality case fans are more expensive than AIOs or open frame.

4. Choice, choice, choice.

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Two unusual problems there.
Well, vibration/echo is sort of usual, but more commonly with HDDs and cheap cases.

No HDDs now. All drive bays removed also. The case is a fairly large midi tower with a now-empty front, so it's pretty hollow. It wasn't cheap, but Enthoo Pro is more solid value range than enthusiast range. The front and top surfaces on which founts are mounted aren't rigid (aluminium sort-of-wings rather than the steel case frame). I decided to use Noctua's rubber bolts rather than screwing the fans tightly (overtightening the screws tended to work better for me than rubber pads some 10–15 years ago).

Part of the problem with vibrations is that there's a heckton of them coming from the outside (think municipal works at night, like plumbing fixes or whatever) and my relatively small room (<12 sqm) on the 11th floor seems to pick up sounds from the outside or even amplify them. Sitting near the window you can sometimes hear conversations from the outside quite clearly. Much of the time ugly sounds feel like they're coming exactly from the PC case under the desk, though the real source is outside, which you only find out by shutting down or hybernating the computer (at which point the sound is still there but as if less prominent). The PC itself stands on a thick anti-vibration rubber mat, so it probably shouldn't be quick to catch vibrations from the outside.

Other than vibrations, it's generally coarse motor/bearing sounds, such as on my Silent Wings 3 hi-speed when pulling through mesh+filter as front intakes. They were audible around 550rpm and problematic from 600 up. At 800 the problem was big. As CPU fans, 900 is or borders on inaudible. Or clicks, if a fan develops them, such as the original 200mm from Phanteks.

Other with audible air flow. Too much air flow.

Could both be linked to those massive 230mm fans? Turn them off?

A bunch of 500rpm fans tends to make things audible for me. I keep case fans off for work and light gaming. IIRC they won't start until CPU hits 60C, at which point they run 300-ish (500–600 tops) and the CPU fan runs 600-ish. In Prime 95 this isn't sufficient, or rather the mobo does a vdroop throttle, Asus-style (Z370-H), as soon as the VRMs reach 75C or Watt output reaches 125. Then, the CPU frequency doesn't seem to change and voltage seems to change only slightly, but wattage seems to be intent on going from 125 to 95, reducing in a huge temp drop, then the cycle starts again. This is the behaviour on my cheap mobo that serves as a temporary replacement for my Aorus Pro Z390.

And coming back to first reaction. You don't need many fans at all.
Plan A:
Slap a big heavy cooler (can recommend Scythe Ninja, wide fin spacing good for low rpm) on CPU.
Add 1 (one) sub 800 rpm exhaust fan somewhere. Let GPU manage its own ****. Done.

The case sits in the exact corner of the room, under the desk. Rear exhaust is 140mm, very close to the wall. Top exhaust is 1x200 or 2x140 (or 1x230 ghetto), often not as close to the desk as the rear is to the wall. Would you suggest rotating the CPU cooler 900 degrees?

As for GPU, I've recently realized that while the air movements are inaudible at 1000-ish rpm, the bearings make a nasty vibration-like contribution to the unsettling sorta-silence-but-something-feels-off overall acoustic impression.

Plan B if fancy overclocking:
Add intake fans blowing cool air into CPU and GPU coolers. Done.

Yes, well, there's a lot of empty space in the case front right now. This is probably what leads to the audibility/echo, and is also what makes me think that this works kinda like a modular/two-chamber case, where you could put bottom intakes opposite of top-front AIO rad exhausts with nothing in between them, somewhat far away from the mobo. (The added length of the removed bays as compared to a modern bayless case.)

In the AIO variant, I would have:

A. CPU top 360 AIO exhaust, GPU front 280 AIO intake, bottom 140 intake, rear 140 exhaust.
B. Top-rear 140 exhaust, CPU front-top 280 AIO exhaust, rest as above.
C. GPU 240 bottom intake.
D. CPU 280 front, GPU top (280+140 fan or 360 rad).
E. Normal fan intakes, GPU with Morpheus/Accelero.

Everything else is just to have fun tinkering, no real benefit.

There's a promo at a retailer's nearby, with Liquid Freezers 280 actually cheaper than D15 or LGMRT. Does this change anything?

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Good conversation!
Understanding airflow is quite important. We need to think of airflow as a liquid instead of a gas. When a fan blows air out it is drawing same amount of air in as out (simple physics). Same applies to and intake fan pushing air into case .. we have the same volume of air coming out as we have going in (again, simple physics).

Static Pressure Rating of our fans is measured by mounting a fan as intake on a sealed container and measuring the most pressure fan can push into that box. This mm H2O measurement shows us the difference between room pressure and pressure in sealed box with fan at full speed. Typically these reading range from 0.70mmH2O to maybe 1.7mmH2O.

Sure, air can be compressed much more than liquids, but the very low pressure ratings of our fans creates between intake and exhaust sides of our fans means almost no compression is done.

To give you an idea of how very little pressure or compression a 1.5mmH2O static pressure rate fan has on exhaust side vs intake side of our fans, it's about the same as the difference in pressure in air pressure on our waist compared to air pressure on our feet standing at sea level.

You might be interested in link below to basic guide to how airflow works and how to optimise case airflow. It's basics for typical tower case, but can easily be adapted to vertical by rotating 90 degrees. It also explains how I use a low cost remote sensor thermometer to monitor cooler intake air temp vs room air temp.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/foru...-i-put-my-temp-sensor.18564223/#post-26159770

Thanks, Doyll!

Mind if I ask you about PH-TC14PE and TSP140 — two coolers I know you're quite fond of (I've read the discussions) and I can purchase inexpensively?

I've been tempted to buy a D15 or Le Grand Macho RT as a surefire choice and call it a day, but:

A retailer near my place has a much cheaper TSP140 (priced on Fuma 2/Ninja 5 level, also available), which might well be the king of air kings — from what I gather from the existing discussions. However, I'm a bit worried about the sheer amount of not-so-spectacular results — even if those are technician error in installation, I'm probably even more likely to mess up than the reviewers are. So should I stick with the TSP140 or should I compromise and get the Macho for some 40% extra cost at 40 TDP less (just a bit more expensive than D15s)?

Alternatively, for even less money I could buy a used PT-TC14PE or D14 heatsink, each potentially better than the D15's, and use it with my 2x140 Silent Wings 3 hi-speed for perhaps a better end result than a D15.

The last alternative is Liquid Freezer II 280 due to a promotion pricing it equally with Macho/D15s and well below D15, but I worry about the possibility of the pump's quiet but audible sound never disappearing in idle, which would completely rule it out for me.

Which one would be the best choice?