Stereo system upgrade advice

thewanted

thewanted

thewanted

Soldato
Joined
27 Jul 2007
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Hi all,

(I posted this on AVForums too, but more opinions would be helpful)

I've owned the following gear for almost 3 years now, but I always knew that they were a starting point, and it feels like a good time to upgrade.

Focal 706S speakers
Marantz PM6003 amplifier
Cambridge Audio DACMagic (this one)

I've been reading about the following items quite a bit this week:

Amplifiers
Creek Evolution 50A
Arcam A19
Rega Brio-R
Roksan Kandy K2

Speakers
Kef R300
B&W CM5
B&W 685 S2

I use this setup for a 50/50 mix of TV/movies and music. Whilst I think my budget build is very good, it does seem to lack in the bass and treble departments. I listen to progressive house (deep, boomy bass), trance (large amounts of "kick" drum), and alternative rock.

Would upgrading the amplifier first be a sensible option since it might bring the speakers "alive"?

In case it matters, my lounge is 5m x 3.8m, but as with all new builds the kitchen is joined to the lounge (the kitchen is not included in the 5x3.8m).

Any input is appreciated :)
 
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I'm surprised that the sound lacks a bit in the top end. The Focals aren't shrinking violets when it comes to treble. So I suspect that the electronics are letting the side down.

As for bass, all your speaker choices are small bookshelf speakers, so they're never going to produce deep, boomy bass or the real thud of a kick drum. If you look at the specs the Focals are a 22.5 litre cabinet that goes down to 53Hz. The R300 are a 28 litre cabinet, they cost twice as much new, and yet only manage to go down to 50Hz. That's not low enough to make an appreciable difference. The other speakers are somewhere in between.

If you want deeper bass then you need bigger speakers.... much bigger speakers. You're looking at floorstanders. They'll provide the bottom end to fill out deeper instruments. They still might struggle though with electronically produced very deep bass. It's the same problem for people who listen to organ music. There's not many speakers around that can replicate the sound of those really big pipes.

Big floorstanders come with their own problems though. The main one is the space they need around them to avoid sounding boomy and uncontrolled. If you have a decent sized lounge with plenty of space then it's not so much of an issue; you might comfortably be able to accommodate 2ft (70cm) clearance for the side walls. But if your current speakers are wedged in the corners of a room then floorstanders aren't going to work well. You might be better off with a subwoofer.

MJ Acoustics or BK Electronics would be the first brands to consider. The advantage with a sub is the bass is tunable. When you've got neighbours to consider or just other people in the same house it's handy to be able to tone down or switch off the extra bass completely. You can't do that with floorstanders. Some of these subs also have preset memories, so you can dial in bass at different amounts to suit music styles.

As for electronics, I'd characterise Arcam as safe and a bit slow, whereas Rega favour a faster leaner sound. The Creek and Roksan sit more in the middle. If I had a 1-2-3 list for demo it would be Roksan, then the Rega then the Creek. Much depends though on whether you keep or change the speakers.
 
Thanks for taking the time to reply lucid.

I really wasn't considering floorstanders because they might look ridiculous in a 1 bedroom flat. Having said that, they don't take up any more space than bookshelves do on stands. However, I don't think I can accommodate a 2ft clearance for the floorstanders without encroaching on my living space.

I hadn't considered a sub because when my downstairs neighbour had one it was quite annoying to hear in my flat. Needless to say, he wasn't the type to "tune" it.

I'm pretty confused now :) I find it hard to believe that something like an Arcam A19 + Kef R300 setup wouldn't be better than what I have already.
 
thewanted said:
I'm pretty confused now :) I find it hard to believe that something like an Arcam A19 + Kef R300 setup wouldn't be better than what I have already.
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Much depends on how you define "better".

If I was looking for more insight in to the music, maybe improved timing, and greater precision then yes, the Kef/Arcam combo might deliver that. But a big part of what you asked for is bass. That means moving air. So it's either big speaker cabinets housing multiple drivers or it's a sub. In your situation the sub is probably the most sensible answer.

Don't let a bad experience with a neighbours sub put you off. There are bass hooligans who just want more more more . These are the same breed as hot hatch owners who put big subs in the boot. It's bloated one note thump thump thump with no definition or precision. On the other end of the scale is the music lover who wants to fill in the bottom octaves without ruining the rest of the sound presentation. A good sub that is set up properly will do that.

Before we go any further, there are AV subs and there are music subs. AV subs are mostly about rumble and volume (depth and slam). Music subs can do this too but their engineering and components mean that they're very quick to react and much more controlled. This is exactly what you want with music; a sub that can start and stop notes precisely.

When you come to set up your sub you'll be able to dial the crossover so it blends and takes over from the stereo speakers. You'll also be able to adjust the bass level so that it adds to rather than dominates the sound. It will be like having floorstanders but without the space and control issues. Depending on the sub, you'll be able to achieve frequency extension equal to floorstanders at £3000+

Subs aren't a perfect answer though. Some of your bass will be coming from a single point rather than the left or right speaker. That's a small compromise though when compared to the wallowy overblown bass you'd get with speakers that are too big for the room and that are also shoved in the wrong place.

The other advantage with a sub is that it is self powered. This takes a lot of the load off the Hi-Fi amp so all it has to do is drive the bookshelf speakers. The job of driving the bass speaker is dealt with by the sub's own internal amp which is designed exactly for that job.
 
You're absolutely correct about the Focal's top end abilities. I was smoking crack when I said that they lacked treble.

I've just been listening to Global Underground - Lights Out 3 (Mixed By Steve Lawler) and I'm definitely hankering after a bit of bass. The music just doesn't sound "full". I listened to the same CD on the way home on my Klipsch S4 IEMs and it didn't sound so high-frequency heavy. I did switch the DACMagic over to the "Min" setting on the Filter/Phase button and I quite like the clarity. It's the reason why the Kef R300s stood out to me because all of the reviews and owners' opinions mentioned how good the bass response is.

In my thread on AVForums I mentioned that I find when watching tv shows/movies, the "voices" get lost. Is there anything I can do to rectify this?

So in terms of musical subwoofers, could I do much better or worse than the BK XLS200? My Marantz PM6003 doesn't have a subwoofer output, and it looks like this might cause a problem.

EDIT: It looks like the BK might be better suited to movies. The SVS SB-1000 is perhaps a better "musical sub? (link)
 
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Lucid, it's worth noting that the specs don't give the full story. I recently listened to some low end Focal floorstanders and the bass was downright awful in it's delivery. Right after I listened to Dali Zensor 5 and they walked all over the Focals.

The KEF R300 have stunning bass for their size, real quality bass. They blew away the Monitor Audio RX6 I used to have.

The BK sealed subs are just as musical as any other. Though to really sort it out you might need an amp capable of changing crossovers so the sub integrates better. I haven't heard your speakers but it's probably worth having a listen to some others, get a demo. Though you may not find the kind of bass you are looking for without adding a sub.
 
Cheers Nick. Did you have a pair of R300s?

I'm on holiday for 3 weeks from mid-April, so there isn't much point demoing anything right now. It's very difficult to find a dealer that stocks everything I'm interested in. Hi-Fi Gear in Hereford comes close, but they don't stock SVS or BK subwoofers. Although from what I can tell, you can only buy BK direct.

The Arcam A19, Creek Evolution 50A, Rega Brio-R and Rotel RA-1570 amps don't have subwoofer outputs, so what should I be looking for in terms of changing crossovers?
 
The Kefs are very good speakers, and so they should be at £1000 a pair. The bass is tight and tuneful. What those who have reviewed and commented are hearing is the benefits of better design and build quality and superior components. It would be much the same effect going up a range from Focal 700 to 800. Things just sound better when there's less restrictions on the budget.

When you say "voices get lost" can you describe whether it's that they're not focused or is it they get swamped by music and effects.

Debating the pro's and con's of BK vs MJ Acoustics vs SVS vs etc etc can quickly turn in to a navel gazing exercise. They are all extremely good subwoofers. If it's useful to think in terms of rules of thumb, then a 10" driver is more agile than a 12" driver. A sealed enclosure (infinite baffle) produces tighter bass than a ported enclosure. But the ported enclosure digs deeper. So if you've been told that the BK's are better for movies then ask the question why do they make sealed enclosure subs. Surely if they're focused on movie performance first then the obvious choice would be a ported design? The fact is that once the performance of a sub reaches a certain level then it's good enough for all jobs. I have a Rel Stadium II at home. I use it for music and movies. It's a ported design and I think a 10" driver. But do you know this is probably the first time I though about the specs in a very very long time, and quite honestly I couldn't care less. It works, beautifully, and sounds terrific.

BKs are great value because they sell direct. That shouldn't be your reason to buy one but it does tell you something about the value of the product. The XLS200 is a cracking sub. The XLS400 is better. If you can afford more then it's worth exploring the other options. However, I wouldn't get too anal about it.

I read through that thread you linked to on AVForums. I'd take anything written by GuitarBizarre with a large pinch of salt. When it comes to sub the guy doesn't know his arse from his elbow. For example, suggesting using the tape outs to connect to the Low Level Input on a sub is just lunacy. Anyone with any real world experience knows that the line level from a Tape Out connection is fixed not variable. The sub would be blasting out regardless of where you set the amp volume.

There's absolutely no problem running a sub from the speaker terminals of a stereo amp. Both MJ Acoustics and BK recommend doing exactly that for maximum musical fidelity. Both manufacturers even go as far as providing two different profile settings so that their subs can be optimised for music and for AV independently via the High and Low level inputs.
 
There was an XXLS400 just sold on AVF for £220 I think.

Only way to get crossover adjustment is an AV receiver but at the same time you will sacrifice a lot in sound quality over an equal priced 2 channel amp. The Yamaha range such as AS500 have sub outputs but tbh using high level inputs on the BK subs actually works very well as lucid suggests.

Yes I had R300 then changed to R500, now I have even more bass and they actually take up less room as they aren't as bulky as the R300.
 
I saw that XXLS400 on AVF about an hour ago. Gutted :( That chap got a real bargain.

@lucid - I find that the music and effects overwhelm the voices. It's not terrible, and I'm starting to think that it might be down to the way I have my lounge arranged. I will need to put things back the way they were if I get a sub, so I'm going to try that first and see if there's an improvement.

Would I be a better neighbour if I got a forward-facing sub instead of a downward-facing one?
 
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